By what standard did you determine that an extra $1050 is "just plain wrong", and "doesn't fit the crime". I'm being absolutely serious. You accept $350 plus court costs (so roughly $450) as appropriate. You do not accept $1500 as appropriate. I am not arguing with you that it is. I'm trying to determine what the standard here is.

$450 is appropriate. Is $550? $750? $1000? Where do you draw the line between appropriate and inappropriate, and what standard did you use to come up with that. What is the translation between a traffic infraction and a monetary fine, and where did that translation come from?

The reason I ask is because several people, including yourself, have argued that the fees are excessive. And that's a fair and valid point, but I don't understand how an arbitrary number came to be accepted as "appropriate", and another arbitrary number can be deemed "acceptable". I suppose its relative--for the last twenty years or whatever, X has always been the punishment and now its Y, therefore X is better than Y. But that isn't an absolute standard.

Consider this analogy. What if Major League Baseball decided to extend all baselines to 200 feet, rather than 90 feet. The distance between home plate and first base is now 200 feet. Many people would say "that's outrageous", and "you're ruining the game". But why was it 90 feet to begin with? There's no universal law of baseball that says baselines must be 90 feet. It is a complete arbitrary number that we've accepted as tradition and practice, and ultimately, as the official rules of baseball. But there's no absolute standard that says it cannot change.

Why was the fine $450 to begin with? There's no universal truth that says speeding X MPH over the limit will always net you Y fine. There is no absolute standard. The only reason why it was $450 to begin with is because the law said it was. And now the law has changed. Relatively speaking, the new fines are outrageous. But they're relative to a completely arbitrary number, so I have difficulty accepting that they are "just plain wrong", or "does not fit the crime".

Please note that this isn't a defense of the abuser fees, but a serious inquiry into one aspect of opposition to them.

and what is "excessive."  On these abuser fees, the people of Virginia appear to be speaking loud and clear, that the fees are unreasonable.  You can defend them all you want, but you're in the small minority on this one.

And forgive me if I don't count the self-interest of drivers as an absolute standard. If I had it my way, I wouldn't be fined anything for speeding.

and a judgment call for each individual.

For the baseball analogy there's an easy answer: it would take too long to cover 200 feet and every runner would be out (except for homers).

You'd be right in saying it's not so clear with traffic citations and fines/fees.  So I base my judgments on the income range of the majority of Virginians and how a fee/fine would impact them.  Excluding the very rich and very poor, you could say a fine/fee in the hundred to few hundred is a solid punishment (I can think of better things to do with that money) but it's not in the same league as $1500 to this middle income group. 

So for a simple violation like speeding a slap upside the head of a couple hundred dollars seems reasonable to me.  A baseball bat of $1500 upside the head is not. 

Actually, I had a suggestion in a post last week that flips the whole thing on it's head - so I can't say I fully support Virginia's traffic citation philosophy even without the abusive fees.  But at least I will say I find it reasonable - unlike the abusive fees.

See argument in my diary Abuser Fees: Violate Due Process? Perhaps.

Also, look at what the other states for comparison.  Yes, we are a republic made up of sovereign states but I am as American as my friends in Maryland, DC, West Virginia, etc...and in the eyes of the law we should all be punished the same for the same crimes or infractions.

*commence state-rights flameage*

Do you then believe that all laws should be federal laws?

is that laws are designed to promote the public interest.

There is a constant counterbalance between economic interests (private and state), public safety, as well as other interests.

People aren't ticked over this because they're stupid.  They realize that this is a pretty convoluted way to go about raising funds for new road construction.

In the private sector, if a company charges too much for its products it starts seeing a decline in revenue. 

I don't know what the magic price point is for a reckless driving fee, but I sure know it isn't $3,150 over three years. 

Not if the "standard" is defined as the public interest.

I suppose if someone defined the public interest as "whatever makes Virginia traffic attorneys wealthy" then they would be consistent, but they would be defining the public interest in a very narrow self-serving way.

So I ask you: Why use road fines as a primary revenue source for new road construction?  Why institute a "tax" which is likely to be enforced arbitrarily in different jurisdictions?  Why institute traffic penalties which are likely to hurt Virginia's long-term economic interests?

concur with what Eric has written.  This person is NOT a "bad driver," and I say that from personal experience having been in his car on numerous occasions.  I also know that he was in a hurry to help his sick parents.  Not that this is an "excuse," but the point that Eric makes is 100% correct - these exorbitant "fees" levied on citizens of Virginia for simple speeding are way beyond any possible standard of "reasonble" or "usual" under the law or the constitution.  The fees shouldn't just be repealed, they should be declared unconstitutional as soon as possible.

What was the speed limit?  If he were driving on I 95, then he was going 85 mph. Maybe he is a good person, a good driver, never tailgates, doesn't weave in and out of traffic, but the bottom line was that he was going 20 miles over the speed limit. 

The weekend after the fees went in place, we drove I 95 in VA.  What a pleasure not having autos going by at 90 and 95. 

The driver of the vehicle that I was in, stayed closer to the 65 mph just because of the new fees.  If the fees were not there, he would have been driving at 75 and 80.

I disagree with Kaine's removal of the out of state enforcement part because I believe that all drivers should be subject to the same fine. 

whether or not 20 mph over is pure evil while 19 mph over is just speeding? 

Look, the point of this post is to say that regular drivers, who don't fit the "habitual abuser" model at all, are getting slapped with these fees.  We can argue all day about exactly where the line should be drawn with respect to speed and reckless driving, but the bottomline is that politicians are standing on their soapboxes claiming these fees will only effect the worst of the worst.  They claim that if you are a good driver, or an average driver, you have nothing to fear.  That is simply untrue - the fees can, will, and have affected regular drivers who are not anywhere close to habitually abusive or reckless.

Sorry, Eric, I generally agree with you.  This is not nitpicking.  Do you think this is the driver's first time to ever go 20 mph over the speed limit?  Why do I doubt it.
Perhaps it is never his first time to get a speeding ticket. 

I don't know about you, but when I drive now, even in town, local roads, I stay near the speed limit.  At one time, I was told that policeman won't even try to catch you unless you are going 15 mph over the speedlimit.

If the driver was not paying attention to the speedometer and just "happened" to push 85 (if that is was the speed), what other things was he not paying attention to....too close to the next car.....

Why on earth would someone who knows the policemen are on the watch not stay within the speedlimit?

1. I agree that pushing the limits now-a-days is not a very smart thing to do.  Like yourself, I've made a conscience effort to slow down a bit - primarily due to these draconian fees.  But that point is off target because it addresses whether or not someone is thinking clearly (i.e. "big fee means I slow down or else") versus my point, which is that supporters claim only the real bad drivers will get nailed - which is absolutely untrue.

2. I'm sure you're right that this is not the very first time my friend exceeded the speed limit by 20.  A great many drivers have at one point or another.  But the real question is does merely going 20 over make you one of these really bad (deserve to be punished big time) drivers?  Or if you only go 18 mph over you are not a bad driver?  Or how many times constitute a bad driver?  Or under what circumstances?  Or what other rules are violated in what manner while exceeding the speed limit?  This notion that bad drivers deserve the fee and good ones don't isn't as black and white as supporters would like it to be because the concept of a bad driver can't be well defined - certainly not within the context of a system designed to collect revenues.  While I don't want to get into all the ugly details of that discussion, I will get back to how it relates to my main assertion: that even though my friend did drive 20 over he is, for the most part, a good driver and not deserving of such an excessive fee.  He is a far better driver than many people who only drive 15 mph over.  Or that drive 10 mph over for that matter.  The 20mph over is simply an insufficient measurement if we are going to be handing out absurd fees for "bad" driving.  He absolutely deserves a basic ticket - but not an insane fee.

Eric, thanks for your thoughtful response.

Several years ago, I had to drive down Great Falls street (Falls Church).  The speed limit was 25 mph.  What made an impression on me as I would drive down the street were the signs that said, something like, speeders will pay a $200 fine for speeding.  I honored that warning.  Despite trying to get to work on time.....I respected that warning and was never ticketed, because me and other drivers obeyed the warning.  Now lets go back to your friend's experience....why on earth would he be willing to take the risk in speeding? 

on your self-discipline to follow the rules rigorously.  It would be nice if there was some sort of award for good driving instead of just a punishment for bad driving - but that isn't going to happen.

But again, I think you're asking the wrong question.  It's true that my friend was not acting in his own best interest given that he could have (and did) get cited for reckless driving.  However, the real issue is not that he broke the law or whether driving 20+ was a smart thing to do, it's that he is basically a good driver.  Especially compared to the quality of drivers we find on the roads in general.  I firmly stand by this and therefore go back to the main point: that supporters of this fee are absolutely wrong in saying that only the bad drivers will pay.

The rules governing what makes an abusive driver do not accurately reflect the true quality of a driver and therefore aren't necessarily applied to the drivers they were intended for.  They will catch some of the "bad" drivers, but they'll also catch quite a few normal drivers they supposedly are designed NOT to catch. 

To your last point, Kaine did that, I believe, to ensure the constitutionality of the fees.  The legislature designed these to be basically variable driver's license fees.  In effect, "abusers" would have to pay more to get a license.  Out of state drivers are licensed in their home state and thus are not subjected to Virginia licensing fees.  If they were, that would violate the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the U.S. Constitution (Article IV, Section 1).

Incidentally, they made these fees rather than fines because the Virginia Constitution requires fines to go into the Literacy Fund.

What's bogged my mind for a while is the fact that this, to me at least, represents double jeopardy.  Why would the $350 or whatever fine be enforced in addition to the civil remedial fees?  Doesn't that seem punishment for the same crime twice?

Any sane person knows that the fine and the fee are really part of the same punishment, but the legal nature of the fee (being applied through the DMV) makes it technically different than the fine imposed by the court - which is the sole official punishment.

double jeopardy for many crimes.  So called sexual preadators for example.  It isn't really legal, but so long as people feel more safer, who cares.  Are we willing to tolerate a TAX that isn't a "TAX" the same as we tolerate additional punishment above and beyond the legal "punishment"?

Apparntly some kool-aid drinkers think BAD DRIVERS are actually the reason for this law.

reverses course.

of someone in the State of Virginia?

I know that a $1,400 speeding ticket would be nearly IMPOSSIBLE for most of my friends with kids and childcare and/or housing payments, and food to pay for.  Many live paycheck to paycheck - and unless the state offers a generous payment plan - many will have to choose between feeding their kids, paying their bills or paying the state.

And 20 over is NOT reckless on some highways... try driving 55mph on 95 or 395 and watch the truckers and other cars fly up behind you like you're going to get blown off the road.  "Going with the flow" of traffic is often 20 over the limit.

So for many, they simply won't be able to pay and stay afloat.  And they are not crazy drivers.  So some will have their license suspended for non payment - but they still have to get to work.  If they get nabbed again - thousands more dollars would be imposed, in addition to possible jail time.

What a snowball effect - with no concern for the (non) cash flow of a huge majority of Virginians. 

It's just not right.

on the automobile.  And will so for god knows how long.

Taxing car ownership and driving have always been an atractive option as it is something that most everyone HAS to do.  License plates were at one time a TAX STAMP not a REGISTRATION of ownership.  The tax paid for roads we all use.

This TAX is wrong on so many levels.  Make them TAKE IT BACK.

by county:

Virginia Places Ranked by Per Capita Income

1 Great Falls, Virginia $78,149
2 McLean, Virginia $63,209
3 Wolf Trap, Virginia $56,294
4 Irvington, Virginia $50,743
5 Penhook, Virginia $48,663
6 Clifton, Virginia $47,459
7 Centreville, Virginia $47,358
8 Tysons Corner, Virginia $47,292
9 Fort Hunt, Virginia $46,957
10 Belle Haven, Fairfax County, Virginia $46,483
11 Lake Barcroft, Virginia $46,293
12 Hillsboro, Virginia $44,455
13 Oakton, Virginia $43,297
14 Wyndham, Virginia $43,195
15 Reston, Virginia $42,747
16 Falls Church, Virginia $41,051
17 Vienna, Virginia $37,753
18 Arlington, Virginia $37,706
19 Mantua, Virginia $37,672
20 Alexandria, Virginia $37,645
21 Franconia, Virginia $37,134
21 Dunn Loring, Virginia $37,134
22 Huntington, Virginia $36,945
23 Short Pump, Virginia $36,804
24 Chatmoss, Virginia $36,777
25 Chantilly, Virginia $36,200
26 West Springfield, Virginia $35,375
27 Gainesville, Virginia $35,196
28 Burke, Virginia $34,936
29 Idylwood, Virginia $34,485
30 Rose Hill, Virginia $34,213
31 North Shore, Virginia $34,028
32 Tuckahoe, Virginia $33,851
33 Dulles, Virginia $33,517
34 Occoquan, Virginia $33,007
35 Urbana, Virginia $32,944
36 Newington, Virginia $32,901
37 Merrifield, Virginia $32,819
38 Middleburg, Virginia $32,643
39 Union Hall, Virginia $31,670
40 Annandale, Virginia $31,623
41 Fairfax, Virginia $31,247
42 Linton Hall, Virginia $30,804
43 Montclair, Virginia $30,711
44 Lake Ridge, Virginia $30,506
45 Leesburg, Virginia $30,116
46 Mount Vernon, Virginia $29,299
47 Washington, Virginia $29,265
48 Daleville, Virginia $29,234
49 Aquia Harbour, Virginia $29,044

51 Jefferson, Virginia $28,705
52 North Springfield, Virginia $28,592
53 Pimmit Hills, Virginia $28,581
54 Chamberlayne, Virginia $28,405
55 The Plains, Virginia $27,909
56 Springfield, Virginia $27,807
57 Groveton, Virginia $27,697
58 Stony Creek, Virginia $27,693
59 Hamilton, Virginia $27,474
60 Sterling, Virginia $27,444
61 Shawsville, Virginia $27,174
62 Herndon, Virginia $26,941
63 Westlake Corner, Virginia $26,915
64 Lincolnia, Virginia $26,876
65 Charlotte Court House, Virginia $26,657
66 Bon Air, Virginia $26,527
67 Haymarket, Virginia $26,503
68 Monterey, Virginia $26,379
69 Sudley, Virginia $26,322
70 Lovettsville, Virginia $26,098
71 Dahlgren, Virginia $25,928
72 Forest, Virginia $25,735
73 Glen Allen, Virginia $25,719
74 Falmouth, Virginia $25,544
75 Poquoson, Virginia $25,336
76 Lake Monticello, Virginia $25,226
77 Lorton, Virginia $25,146
78 Cloverdale, Virginia $25,075
79 Round Hill, Virginia $24,925
80 Nokesville, Virginia $24,765
81 Yorktown, Virginia $24,748
82 Hybla Valley, Virginia $24,745
83 Blue Ridge, Virginia $24,683
84 Dooms, Virginia $24,600
85 Basye-Bryce Mountain, Virginia $24,543
86 Manassas, Virginia $24,453
87 Laymantown, Virginia $24,321
88 Massanutten, Virginia $24,292
89 Jarratt, Virginia $24,291
90 Purcellville, Virginia $24,112
91 Bailey's Crossroads, Virginia $24,091
92 Mechanicsville, Virginia $24,068
93 Accomac, Virginia $24,050
94 Tangier, Virginia $24,042
95 Colonial Heights, Virginia $23,659
96 Floyd, Virginia $23,557
97 Warrenton, Virginia $23,552
98 Chester, Virginia $23,258
99 West Point, Virginia $23,232
100 Claremont, Virginia $22,741

101 Capron, Virginia $22,588
102 Abingdon, Virginia $22,486
103 Bull Run, Virginia $22,384
104 Virginia Beach, Virginia $22,365
105 Dale City, Virginia $22,363
106 Lakeside, Virginia $22,242
107 Fairview Beach, Virginia $22,231
108 Hollins, Virginia $21,984
109 Laurel, Virginia $21,893
110 Bluefield, Virginia $21,755
111 Wachapreague, Virginia $21,680
112 Montross, Virginia $21,653
113 Eastville, Virginia $21,621
114 Surry, Virginia $21,606
115 Loch Lomond, Virginia $21,604
116 Fredericksburg, Virginia $21,527
117 Dumbarton, Virginia $21,446
118 Madison, Virginia $21,445
119 Warsaw, Virginia $21,392
120 Pulaski, Virginia $21,338
121 Stanardsville, Virginia $21,317
122 Fishersville, Virginia $21,248
123 Kilmarnock, Virginia $21,172
124 Manassas Park, Virginia $21,048
125 Windsor, Virginia $20,999
126 Chesapeake, Virginia $20,949
127 Chatham, Virginia $20,785
128 Timberlake, Virginia $20,760
129 Gloucester Courthouse, Virginia $20,749
130 Rushmere, Virginia $20,722
131 Clarksville, Virginia $20,546
132 Gloucester Point, Virginia $20,536
133 Winchester, Virginia $20,500
134 New Market, Virginia $20,480
135 Seven Corners, Virginia $20,475
136 Oak Level, Virginia $20,439
137 Chincoteague, Virginia $20,367
138 Berryville, Virginia $20,337
139 Richmond, Virginia $20,337
140 Bowling Green, Virginia $20,223
141 Wytheville, Virginia $20,223
142 Salem, Virginia $20,091
143 Colonial Beach, Virginia $19,991
144 Fincastle, Virginia $19,954
145 Yorkshire, Virginia $19,841
146 Matoaca, Virginia $19,810
147 Woodbridge, Virginia $19,810
148 Hampton, Virginia $19,774
149 Claypool Hill, Virginia $19,588
150 Christiansburg, Virginia $19,579
151 Grundy, Virginia $19,531
152 Mineral, Virginia $19,397
153 South Hill, Virginia $19,319
154 Smithfield, Virginia $19,301
155 Gate City, Virginia $19,268
156 Staunton, Virginia $19,161
157 Chesterfield Court House, Virginia $19,125
158 Onley, Virginia $19,115
159 Quantico, Virginia $19,087
160 Spotsylvania Courthouse, Virginia $19,052
161 West Gate, Virginia $19,031
162 McKenney, Virginia $19,005
163 Edinburg, Virginia $18,993
164 Low Moor, Virginia $18,982
165 Triangle, Virginia $18,982
166 Stanleytown, Virginia $18,959
167 Jolivue, Virginia $18,905
168 Suffolk, Virginia $18,836
169 Wise, Virginia $18,760
170 Melfa, Virginia $18,660
171 Crozet, Virginia $18,647
172 Middletown, Virginia $18,613
173 Franklin, Virginia $18,573
174 Phenix, Virginia $18,572
175 Halifax, Virginia $18,571
176 Rich Creek, Virginia $18,553
177 Williamsburg, Virginia $18,483
178 Courtland, Virginia $18,474
179 Roanoke, Virginia $18,468
180 Lyndhurst, Virginia $18,467
181 Stuarts Draft, Virginia $18,463
182 Amherst, Virginia $18,457
183 Onancock, Virginia $18,393
184 Woodstock, Virginia $18,373
185 Jonesville, Virginia $18,347
186 Broadway, Virginia $18,274
187 Lynchburg, Virginia $18,263
188 Dublin, Virginia $18,224
189 Bridgewater, Virginia $18,215
190 Troutdale, Virginia $18,139
191 Ivor, Virginia $18,033
192 Stephens City, Virginia $17,998
193 Altavista, Virginia $17,997
194 Highland Springs, Virginia $17,979
195 Narrows, Virginia $17,933
196 Waynesboro, Virginia $17,932
197 Front Royal, Virginia $17,901
198 Gordonsville, Virginia $17,881
199 Tappahannock, Virginia $17,862
200 Parksley, Virginia $17,855

201 Newport News, Virginia $17,843
202 White Stone, Virginia $17,835
203 Troutville, Virginia $17,807
204 Louisa, Virginia $17,763
205 St. Paul, Virginia $17,735
206 Strasburg, Virginia $17,697
207 Dumfries, Virginia $17,652
208 Bassett, Virginia $17,651
209 Verona, Virginia $17,630
210 Fairlawn, Pulaski County, Virginia $17,606
211 Dayton, Virginia $17,600
212 Atkins, Virginia $17,516
213 Galax, Virginia $17,447
214 Scottsville, Virginia $17,432
215 Laurel Park, Virginia $17,413
216 Pearisburg, Virginia $17,412
217 Norfolk, Virginia $17,372
218 Horse Pasture, Virginia $17,368
219 Virgilina, Virginia $17,337
220 Bristol, Virginia $17,311
221 Montrose, Virginia $17,259
222 East Highland Park, Virginia $17,251
223 Martinsville, Virginia $17,251
224 Sherando, Virginia $17,218
225 Grottoes, Virginia $17,195
226 Elkton, Virginia $17,192
227 Danville, Virginia $17,151
228 Collinsville, Virginia $17,145
229 Boyce, Virginia $17,041
230 Belle Haven, Accomack County, Virginia $17,009
231 Fancy Gap, Virginia $16,997
232 Charlottesville, Virginia $16,973
233 Ashland, Virginia $16,932
234 Patrick Springs, Virginia $16,915
235 Adwolf, Virginia $16,880
236 Hurt, Virginia $16,875
237 Culpeper, Virginia $16,842
238 Glade Spring, Virginia $16,842
239 Weyers Cave, Virginia $16,837
240 Crewe, Virginia $16,826
241 Vinton, Virginia $16,817
242 Orange, Virginia $16,805
243 Boones Mill, Virginia $16,795
244 Bellwood, Virginia $16,764
245 Covington, Virginia $16,758
246 Toms Brook, Virginia $16,712
247 Iron Gate, Virginia $16,703
248 Remington, Virginia $16,693
249 Lebanon, Virginia $16,678
250 Cedar Bluff, Virginia $16,664
251 Chilhowie, Virginia $16,657
252 Pembroke, Virginia $16,643
253 Merrimac, Virginia $16,634
254 Hillsville, Virginia $16,633
255 Newsoms, Virginia $16,633
256 Keysville, Virginia $16,560
257 Portsmouth, Virginia $16,507
258 Lexington, Virginia $16,497
259 Woodlawn, Virginia $16,494
260 Timberville, Virginia $16,450
261 Buena Vista, Virginia $16,377
262 Marion, Virginia $16,372
263 Hopewell, Virginia $16,338
264 Clintwood, Virginia $16,323
265 Stuart, Virginia $16,265
266 Buchanan, Virginia $16,238
267 Craigsville, Virginia $16,226
268 Rocky Mount, Virginia $16,207
269 Luray, Virginia $16,205
270 Boykins, Virginia $16,148
271 Independence, Virginia $16,137
272 Ridgeway, Virginia $16,054
273 Shenandoah, Virginia $16,030
274 Norton, Virginia $16,024
275 Rural Retreat, Virginia $15,993
276 Petersburg, Virginia $15,989
277 Burkeville, Virginia $15,947
278 Port Royal, Virginia $15,878
279 South Boston, Virginia $15,872
280 Weber City, Virginia $15,856
281 Emory-Meadow View, Virginia $15,750
282 Drakes Branch, Virginia $15,701
283 Hampden Sydney, Virginia $15,656
284 Dendron, Virginia $15,643
285 Fort Chiswell, Virginia $15,614
286 Madison Heights, Virginia $15,589
287 Blackstone, Virginia $15,562
288 Richlands, Virginia $15,548
289 Tazewell, Virginia $15,468
290 Bedford, Virginia $15,423
291 Keller, Virginia $15,417
292 Kenbridge, Virginia $15,386
293 Emporia, Virginia $15,377
294 Exmore, Virginia $15,305
295 Wakefield, Virginia $15,290
296 Scottsburg, Virginia $15,289
297 Pamplin City, Virginia $15,246
298 Clifton Forge, Virginia $15,182
299 Mount Jackson, Virginia $15,004
300 Damascus, Virginia $14,995

301 Rustburg, Virginia $14,972
302 Harrisonburg, Virginia $14,898
303 Bensley, Virginia $14,896
304 Crimora, Virginia $14,864
305 Cana, Virginia $14,859
306 Mount Crawford, Virginia $14,856
307 Waverly, Virginia $14,848
308 Brodnax, Virginia $14,785
309 Max Meadows, Virginia $14,757
310 Nassawadox, Virginia $14,626
311 Alberta, Virginia $14,607
312 Greenville, Virginia $14,598
313 Quantico Station, Virginia $14,563
314 Goshen, Virginia $14,400
315 Gretna, Virginia $14,397
316 Pound, Virginia $14,375
317 Appomattox, Virginia $14,355
318 Painter, Virginia $14,350
319 Radford, Virginia $14,289
320 Cheriton, Virginia $14,238
321 Castlewood, Virginia $14,203
322 Sugar Grove, Virginia $14,172
323 Brookneal, Virginia $14,164
324 New Castle, Virginia $14,119
325 Glasgow, Virginia $14,093
326 Selma, Virginia $14,045
327 Boydton, Virginia $14,034
328 Blacksburg, Virginia $13,946
329 Saltville, Virginia $13,908
330 Cape Charles, Virginia $13,789
331 Elliston-Lafayette, Virginia $13,785
332 Vansant, Virginia $13,743
333 Pennington Gap, Virginia $13,742
334 Victoria, Virginia $13,693
335 Columbia, Virginia $13,632
336 Chase City, Virginia $13,559
337 Farmville, Virginia $13,552
338 La Crosse, Virginia $13,532
339 Villa Heights, Virginia $13,491
340 Saxis, Virginia $13,404
341 Hallwood, Virginia $13,351
342 Bloxom, Virginia $13,337
343 Big Stone Gap, Virginia $13,284
344 Ettrick, Virginia $13,251
345 Haysi, Virginia $13,155
346 Fries, Virginia $13,107
347 Stanley, Virginia $13,082
348 Fieldale, Virginia $12,919
349 Dryden, Virginia $12,825
350 Coeburn, Virginia $12,802
351 Sandy Level, Virginia $12,757
352 Glen Lyn, Virginia $12,706
353 Fort Belvoir, Virginia $12,453
354 Fort Lee, Virginia $12,448
355 Lawrenceville, Virginia $12,353
356 Ferrum, Virginia $12,276
357 Clinchco, Virginia $12,257
358 Dungannon, Virginia $12,200
359 Pocahontas, Virginia $12,124
360 Duffield, Virginia $12,046
361 Branchville, Virginia $11,985
362 Honaker, Virginia $11,888
363 Nickelsville, Virginia $11,871
364 Appalachia, Virginia $11,782
365 Ewing, Virginia $11,722
366 Cleveland, Virginia $11,263
367 Dillwyn, Virginia $11,091
368 Keokee, Virginia $11,025
369 Clinchport, Virginia $10,485
370 Raven, Virginia $10,356
371 St. Charles, Virginia $10,133
372 Rose Hill, Lee County, Virginia $9,652

Have done away with "Standard" fines, or set dollar fees.

Instead, the punishment is a percentage of the individual's income.  Of course there is a low minimum, so as to prevent the chronically unemployed or underemployed from getting away "Scott Free" and a max to prevent, oh I don't know, $1500 speeding tickets.

I think that in the Commonwealth we don't have the political will to do that, but it would solve a lot of problems if we had this system.

Last time I was in traffic court (and this was before abuser fees).  I bore witness to what I felt to be a horrible miscarriage of justice.

A young woman had her license suspended (for not paying an outstanding ticket, she was a full time employee of Burger King).  She had been granted permission to drive her kid to school and herself to work.  Well, she was in court this day because her kids school called to tell her that her son was sick.  She left work to go pick up her son and take him to the doctor's office.  Well, it just so happens that one of her headlights was out (it was raining and thus they were required equipment) so a cop pulls her over ran her license and charged her with driving on a suspended.  This woman obviously could not afford a high-priced traffic lawyer such as Dave Albo (R-Abuser Fee) and as such was sentenced to three days in jail FOR DRIVING HER KID TO THE DOCTOR.

Yes, she did break the law.  But here's the thing.  If she had been in a better financial situation she would not have had her license suspended in the first place (remember, it was for not paying tickets not for accumulating too many points) and would probably have fixed her headlight and not been pulled that day.

When these tickets start to be as much as %15 of annual income for FIRST TIME OFFENDERS, society has failed.

Lowell what is the source for this information regarding per capital income?  When I have read material about the income levels for the median incomes it has been over $90,000.

All the numbers in the $90-$120K are for "median household income".  These numbers are per person.

comment.  Just click on it.  Thanks.

There, I said it.  And I'm a good driver with no history of loss or injury.  Yet I have been threatened with license suspension and paid huge premiums to insurance companies.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) defines "speed related" accidents to include 1) improper lane changes, 2) following to closely, 3) unsafe passing, 4) inattention, 5) reckless driving, 6) high speed chase, 7) erratic speeds, 8) driving too fast for conditions (not necessarily above the limit), and 9) driving less than posted minimums.  Those are the accidents that are used when you hear, "1/3 of accidents are speed related.

But driving 80 MPH, with the flow, properly spaced, attentive, in a properly maintained car? Not dangerous.

and republicans should stop trying to make it the issue. Like most republican policy efforts, it is cleverly named (like an advertising slogan) but is absolutely NOT what it pretends to be. The issue is trying to finance capital improvements by not paying for it. You know how the republicans are about those dreadful to-be-avoided, always-manipulated three-letter words (Tax, Sex, God, War, Gun---Lie, etc).. a bunch of utterly phony jerks.

Republicans want everything "free". They pass the cost of the GWOT on to our children by borrowing funds in the international market; they pay for plastic geegaws from China by drawing on the equity in their homes until there is no more equity and then they face foreclosure because they can't actually then PAY for these loans when rates reset. They even talk about culture of life while they deny any protection or help to the children thereafter born, and so on. I'm getting very tired of these word games.  Screw 'em.

the true core of the problem with these fees is that they are and were put in place to raise money for the transportation plan. 

I focused on the "abusive driver" aspect for this post simply because it is one of few threads the fee supporters cling to.  And the fees clearly aren't being applied as these supports contend - therefore showing that even their desperate argument is faulty and holds no water.

But ultimately I agree with you that the worst aspect of this entire disaster is that it is simply an attempt to avoid the three letter word: t-a-x.

I'm a very, very good driver.  In fact, I love driving.  I always pay attention, I always let other drivers know when I intend to change lanes, and I always go with the flow of the traffic - even if the flow of the traffic exceeds the posted speed limit.  I'm not out in front of the flow, and I'm not trailing behind the flow...I'm just right with it.  And around here, it's usually faster than the posted limit.

Does that mean that I and these other drivers are 'reckless'?  No, not at all.  'Reckless' driving, to me, is when a driver zips in and out of lanes on the beltway without indicating to the drivers behind him of his intenstions.  Or when someone tailgates you.  Or when someone is not paying attention because he/she's talking on the phone, or gabbing with a bunch of friends, or putting on makeup, or many other things. 

I lived in Germany for many years where there are no speed limits on the autobahn.  And yet the German drivers are some of the best, most disciplined drivers in the world - far, far better than the nuts we have on American roads.  They all know the rules of the road and they all obey them.  One of the things that makes them so good is that they have to pass a very extensive driving exam, which makes our driving tests look like a child's test by comparison.

Three years ago I got a speeding ticket on the Fairfax County Parkway.  I was going with the flow and sped up for a moment to pass a car.  I got ticketed for speeding (not reckless driving, because I wasn't 20 mph over).  But the cost of my ticket, plus the court fees that are added to the basic ticket price, were high enough.  I don't remember what the cost was, but it was well over $100 dollars.  And that hurt me enough without adding any other fees to that ticket price. 

My point is that the fines that have been on the books for some years now are high enough, and they more than adequately fit the offense. To add any other fees on top of that is beyond the pale. 

ok  we virginia drivers will drive closer to the speed limit.
Out of staters, not subject to the draconian taxes, will go as fast as they want.

Result.. more accidents(Differing speeds)
  More injuries
  More death.

Thank you Kaine.  Be glad you cant run again for gov, as it is  certain you would lose.

(And i am a liberal democrat, 5 generation!)

When you drive at a reckless rate of speed (20 mph over), why shouldn't you pay a hefty fine?  Why should you be allowed to take it as your personal perogative to blast past me on the highway at 85-90mph puting me and everyone on the roads in greater danger of an accident? Not only does this high rate of speed increase the odds of an accident, it increases the odds of serious or fatal injuries.
I've been driving for 20 years and driven the whole length of this entire country multiple times.  I've never been stopped for speeding once.  I'm constantly amazed that people ask me what my secret is.  Like its some giant mystery to pay attention to the white signs along the road that tell you what the speed limit is; and then you know drive the speed limit.

They are fees designed to raise money but not call them "taxes," which is what they are of course.

The 1050 initial payment is a fine.  This fine is assessed against all drivers regardless of in / out of state.  Then each year to retain your license in VA, you must pay an addition fee if you are a bad driver, defined by the number of points on your license.  This scheme makes total sense to me. We arn't talking about a minor speeding ticket here, we're talking about going 20 mph over the speed limit.  20mph over has never been speeding in VA, it has always been reckless driving; and does often result in a short time in the county lockup. 

Personally I think the major flaw in this law is not in the concept, but in the fines/fees assessed.  Here are two suggestions.  First lets prorate the fines/fees to income.  A rich person can afford 3k, but a poor person could be whiped out; that seems outrageous to me.  Second figure out a way to assess the fees against out of state drivers.

The overall theory is good, people who make better choices pay less.  People who raise our common risks through poor choices pay more.  For our next fee/fine combo how about fines for misleading the country into a quagmire?  I'm sure there are some deep pocketed neocons we could collect from.

disguised to make you think that someone else will be paying.  Not too many people consider themselves to be these "bad" drivers who will do the paying, so true nature of this clever tax is that most people think they're getting a free ride from the "bad" drivers.

This fee is bad in so many ways it boggles the mind.

If you want safer roads I agree completely.  What did you think of on this topic a few days back?