...to go with the flow. It happened with the tunnel and now we see it again. Remember though he was behind getting Bechtel the El contract, and he voted against the last Iraq funding bill because it contained a time table.

As he said at one of his town halls (to paraphrase) "In the final analysis I'm a Republican" I think it would have been more accurate if he had said "In the final analysis, I'm an operator.".

Not the same topic as this thread obviously, but he had zip to do with the Bechtel contract - that was done entirely by the State, he obviously had no input into that and chances are you know that but just present it otherwise - which is fine.  Just present the correct facts, that's all.

"to try to find a way to declare victory and get out of there".  Everybody on earth knows that this war was unjustified and a miserable failure.  Why, in hell, do you have to wait until you can figure out how put a "victory" face on it while soldiers are dying? 

I can't believe the insensitivity and arrogance of that statement towards our soldiers. 

Utterly despicable.  He's playing politics while our soldiers are in harm's way in Iraq.  Of course, so is Bush, who just vetoed funding for the troops because the bill wasn't EXACTLY as he wanted it.  Birds of a feather...

look we all know both sides are playing politics do I really have to dig up the schumer and reid quotes for you

I just sent an email to Webb and Warner basically saying this

Now is the time for leadership.  Neither "side" has it right.  An unfunded mandate is wrong as is arguing about which day to withdraw.  We need accountability tied to the Iraqi govenment via benchmarks.  The two of you have a unique opporunity to work together to make this happen and make Virginia proud. 

is "commander in chief," and not a very good one either.  Also, Bush doesn't exactly listen to anyone, but the Democrats are trying their best to respond to the voters' clear message from last November - get us the hell OUT of Iraq!  Sorry, but you're not going to get off the hook by saying "both parties play politics."  The last 6 years have been all Republican, all the time.  The Bush Administration has sunk to the lowest of lows by using the worst scare tactics - and blatant lies, like the supposed, completely bogus connection of Saddam to 9/11 - to convince the American people to go to war.  Then, when anyone challenges the Bush Iraq war "strategy" - and I use the term very loosely - they basically call the person a traitor who doesn't "support the troops" and wants to "cut and run."  These people are an absolute disgrace, and if you can't see that, I really have nothing more to say to you.

look we can argue about the past all day the future is now

This is a very interersting document.  The actions by both parties are having a real impact on current Iraqi operations.

Also, this documents shows how complex the Iraq issue is and how bumper sticker rhetoric is helping absolutely noone.

http://www.cq.com/di...

that Bush, Cheney, etc. have to say.  They have ZERO credibility, their approval ratings are toast, and they continue to resort to fearmongering and calling their political opponents (the vast majority of the country at this point) disloyal or whatever.  Moving forward, we need the Democrats to take charge of this country, or else we're screwed (on Iraq, global warming, health care, the budget, you name it).

I think that's what a lot of these moderates were saying.  That nobody trusts those folks on the war - the only person that has any credibility whatsoever is General Petraeus.  So when any good news comes, it needs to be presented not by Bush, Cheney, et al, but it needs to be presented by Petraeus, because he is the only person at this point the people would have any inkling of listening to.

You may have a point about both parties "playing politics" - although as Lowell points out it's the Democrats who are speaking the will of the people.

But here's the problem I have with "moving forward" - it is a classic redirect so the party responsible for [FAILURE X - FILL IN THE BLANK] isn't held accountable.  It's the old what's past is past trick.

Yes, we do need to keep moving forward, but not in a fashion that forgets or easily forgives past misdeeds.  Bush and Republican party in general screwed the pooch - badly - with the war in Iraq.  They must be held accountable.  We must not just move forward.  If we didn't have the type of electoral system we have, Bush would have already lost his seat of power.  He is incompetent at best.  And that's being generous.

And as Lowell also points out, given the extensive track record of failures of this administration and it's supporters, they can not be trusted to lead our country.  Whether its incompetence or outright lies, we as a country should place little to no faith in the ability of the Bush administration to govern.  And as such, good faith bipartisan efforts to move forward should be the last thing on anyone's mind.

You "move forward" but you don't forget the past.  Also, you investigate crimes that might have been committed, and you prosecute people to the full extent of the law...even if it takes years.  That's what "statutes of limitations" are for, by the way.  Of course, Bush might just pardon everyone as he heads out the door, but that will just prove what a gang of criminals these people are.

you guys want electoral blood

Alot of Republicans would be doing the same thing if the parties were reversed :-p

However, personally I actually want what is best for the country regardless of what party says it. 

You completely misunderstand what motivates me.  I want what's best for the country as well, but I strongly believe as a deep conviction that conservatism is wrong, that the Bush Administration and Republican Congress (2000-2006, RIP) have been complete and utter disasters.  At this point, I do not trust the Republican Party as far as I can throw it, and I certainly don't want to turn the White House over to any of their current crop of candidates.  I strongly believe, and this has nothing to do with "electoral blood," that they would be an unmitigated disaster.

has moved so far to the right over the past 20 years that it's basically the most extreme major party in the developed world.  Kevin Phillips, a lifelong REPUBLICAN I might add, argues that the current GOP is a "nightmarish vision of ideological extremism, catastrophic fiscal irresponsibility, rampant greed and dangerous shortsightedness."  I couldn't agree more.  In short, the current GOP is violently opposed to almost everything I believe, ranging from embryonic stem cell research to global warming to foreign policy to civil liberties to...

So, that's where I'm coming from, but you can continue to try and dismiss and minimize the conclusions that I - and millions of others - have reached after watching the Republicans since Ronald Reagan.  They are a disaster, unfit to govern, and a party in dire need of a complete overhaul.

You want democrats in power understood

Anyone who will help in the areas I care about:

*Dealing with global warming and other environmental crises
*Universal health care
*Top-notch education for all Americans
*Restoring checks and balances to our system
*Maintaining separation of church and state
*A foreign policy that is not trigger happy, but that broadly serves American interests - economic and political, but also moral and "humble." 
*Civil liberties and human rights
*A balanced budget/"pay as you go"
*Rule of law, not corruption
*Competent government, not gross incompetence
*Stay the hell out of our bedrooms and our most personal life-and-death decisions
*Etc.

I will support whoever credibly pledges to accomplish these goals, whether they be Democrats, Republicans, Independents, or the Purple People Eater Party.  I don't care.

depending on how he stood on a few other issues.  I loved his line -- turn off the TV and read a book!

Here's a good anecdote on Gilchrest. That Boner guy - I mean Boehner - would only "appoint Gilcrest to the bipartisan Select Committee on Energy Independence and Global Warming - but only if the Maryland Republican would say humans are not causing climate change, Gilchrest said."

"I said, `John, I can't do that,' Gilchrest, R-1st-Md., said in an interview. `He said, Come on. Do me a favor. I want to help you here.' "
http://www.mdgreens....
http://www.washingto...

So the Republicans miss a chance to elevate Gilcrest in BLUE Maryland, and give him some credibility on the Chesapeake Bay issues, because he's not a loyal Bushie science deny-er.

Maryland as produced Republicans I am proud of. Charles Mathias practically saved the Bay single-handedly while Nixon and Reagan tried to dismantle EPA. Morella was great until she let herself get bullied into climbing aboard Newt Gingrich's Contact On America.

Who knows maybe someday I will be a Virginia democrat :-p

Yes, there is a partisan aspect to what we say and that we'd much rather have Dems in power and put the blame where we feel it belongs (on the Repubs, obviously).

But the point that you may be missing here is that we have zero confidence in the Bush administration.  I wouldn't hire them to cut my lawn if they were a landscaping company.  To allow them a seat at the table when so much is at stake is horrifying to many of us - and increasingly more Americans feel the same way.  Check the polls if you don't believe me.

Bush isn't going away - at least not for the next 18 months or so.  But that doesn't mean the Dems should listen to him or work with him any more than they absolutely must.  Bush is, and has been, a disaster for this country and he has proven it time and again.  It isn't just one mistake.

Seriously, politics aside, would you hire Bush to do anything for you?  Would you take his advice on anything important in your life?  I sure as hell wouldn't.  And that's what this is about in terms of moving forward.

Personal view here

neither side "gets it"

not an open-ended mandate or a withdraw date

like I said benchmarks with teeth

and thankfully i think its coming once the July house plan gets killed the senate is going to provide something that I will like and I hope liberals like yourselves and right-wing conservatives will also like

Cheers

struck me as well.  We can leave but only if we can declare victory?  He didn't say we have to win, just to declare victory.

So how about this: Fly Dubya out to an aircraft carrier, deck him out in a military uniform, and hang a big ass sign that says "We Win!".  That counts as a "declaration of victory" and is about as accurate as everything else that Bush and friends have said about the entire Iraq war. 

Like "heckuva job" on New Orleans?  The budget and trade deficits...eh, we declare victory!  Global warming?  Eh, even if it's not just "the greatest plot ever perpetrated against the American people," let's just keep burning fossil fuels, drown those stupid polar bears, move to high ground (unless you're a poor Bangladeshi or whatever) and declare victory!  On and on we could go...

That's to save face. Its the same thing they tried to do with Vietnam. Maybe they should give Bush the medal of freedom, declare victory, and withdraw. That's the Bush way of doing things. They can also add "Heck of a job, Bushie".

Lies are truth, oppression is freedom, failure is success.

Didn't he say cutting and running was punishable by death?

I guess it was politically expedient then. No longer.

if you "declare victory" first, THEN "cut and run?"  Ha.

here's a story about a real threat to national security:

http://www.iol.co.za...

LOL

At FDA there are great stories on these devices. I think a diary will have to be written as carefully as Seinfeld's "Master of Your Domain" episode, where the keyword is never actually used.

According to news reports of the meeting with the President, here, here and here, Davis told the President his little War is hurting the Party in the polls. Forget how it's hurting our veterans in Walter Reed.

None of these moderate Republicans "cared" two years ago -- until the poll numbers started tanking

If you want real change, help elect a DEMOCRAT in the 11th.

I got a FIGHTING DEM, getting ready to run. Name will surface in the future.

Um, no doubt I know who will win.

This fighting Dem is a graduate of the Naval Academy, has served in the Senate Armed Services Committee, and his a highly decorated Gulf War & Iraq War Veteran.

And he's got small kids at home.

"Find a way to declare victory" ??? Look down at your hands Mr. Davis: the red stuff is blood.  It's as simple as that.

Tom Davis is saying that it is more important to invoke politics (taking the time to figure out a victory exit) so that politicians can say "we won" than to care about the soldier that died yesterday, than to care for the safety of the soldiers that will die today and will die tomorrow. Try to explain that to their loved ones, Mr. Davis.

If the Democrats don't use Mr. Davis' callous comment to their advantage in each and every upcoming election, then shame on them. 

Mr. Davis, do you really support our troops or do you just want to be on the winning side?