The country and more of Virginians need to see a real debate between the candidates.

is on Channel 13- WSET for the full hour.

Video of the debate at The Washington Post.

...with a smile and a whine that's what makes my skin crawl.

I thought I was just being petty.  I can't stand Allen's voice and that smug fake smile makes me want to punch him.  My 18 year old son says it has the same effect on him -- there's something smarmy about the man.  Ickkkkk.

ugh

This whole issue about Allen- will George do the same?

how to respect an opponent.

Webb didn't answer the question.  He needs to relax and answer the questions.

Allen defined victory as Iraqis governing themselves and US troops coming home victorious.

Webb talked military policy-speak and never mentioned the word victory.

Webb did well in responding to the question posed to Allen about using the n-word.

Gawd! The debate has already dropped into macaca and 27-year-old writings by Webb about women.

I think we got to see who has more class all around.

Allen tripped over his own tongue and was rattled by the timer when he tried to respond to Webb's comment about Allen opposing women at VMI.

Allen staring into the camera and giving his holier than thou on marriage. Screw you Mr. Allen, from my gay relatives and friends.

Does taxpayer bill of rights have to do with our outrageous deficit? I think I may go insane tonight. Time for lots more booze.

and acting more like a playground bully than a member of the U.S. Senate.

Jim isn't taking it, go Jim!

I'm with Doug on this one.  Allen spewed so much tax-related BS it is staggering.  He invented stuff out of thin air.  (BTW: the ad appearing curretnly outright fabricates Webb's positions).  So now were down to Allen cribbing his pretend bills, submitting them after the deadline (but taking credit anyway), and making up false bases for attacking Webb.  It's outrageous and disgusting.  This is outright fraud upon voters by George Felix Allen, Jr. 

Gotcha!

Clearly Allen didn't have an answer.  What is wrong with saying "I don't know" in these situations?  I'm pretty savvy when it comes to world geography but this is the first I'd heard of the place....

Paul that's for you! Thanks for the call!

Oh, and now I'm paused and behind. Go Jim!

Women as a minority?! I think we heard where Allen ranks women.

chicaquo islands? Payback is a bitch, MFer.

on the ballot?

Allen's eyebrow is giving Tim Kaine's a run for its money.

Webb is stiff, and keeps launching into technical speak.  Neither of them really blew me away (to be totally honest).  I wish that Webb could've hammered home more on the national security point - that ultimately, we are NOT safer right now, we've seen many more threats emerge to our country.

I didn't get the last question.  Was that an attempt to demonstrate Allen's lack of knowledge on complex foreign policy issues?  And why didn't Webb follow up?

Bit confused on that one.  I was expecting him to nail Allen on the stock options or something more hard hitting.

transcript. He was getting back at Allen. It was a real bitch slap for anyone who knew of the first debate. It was sort of weird for someone who hasn't maybe?

I didn't catch the first debate, so yes it struck me as weird.  I am one of those people outside of Virginia pulling for Webb.  I've never been this excited about a race outside my state.

He should know the name of every country for which there are problems.  Do you think Kerry, also on the SFRC, would get stumped by such a question?  Of course not.  But to quote Colbert, "allen is as dumb as a post", and can't go far off the talking points reservation without getting flustered.

Takes on the men:

Allen is super rehearsed on speaking into the camera. He does steal the Kaine eyebrow (TM I think!). He does a bad tie knot. His speaking into the camera does come off well.

Webb is not as rehearsed and he speaks to the askers of the questions. That's probably not the best thing, but I really like it. A super double windsor a la the Naval Academy Mr. Secretary. I'm sure your gig line is straight as well, but I don't want to get accused of any Foley like peaking.

In general- Allen's questions, statements SCREAM of a focus group who think bad things about Hillary, Kennedy and Kerry. He really jammed that down our throats, and it speaks ill of our intelligence. It will show and it will make many voters angry.

Outstanding, much more personable and important closing statement by Webb. I have not heard Webb change his main issue talking points once, since I first heard him speak in the primary. NOT ONCE. I have understood where he is coming from and where he wants us to go from that first speach I saw in Roanoke this spring. Allen, I have clearly seen change, and it screams of focus groups. Bless you Mr. Secretary for taking on this whole horrendous journey.

You know when Felix was being so enthusiastic about voting for the marriage ammendment that was for his fundamentalist friends. He needs them other wise he's toast. I can't believe why people are so dumb to vote for Allen--what a punk ass dung head. Somebody hang Allen over Niagra Falls like he did his sister. This is a sick man, a very sick man.

Just beautiful.  Telling Reagan Democrats to "come home".  Poignantly pointed out how absurd Allen's statement was.  He was great.  I think he won the debate by pointing out what was wrong in America, what a liar Allen was, and coming across as somebody completely different from the usual politician.

I hope Virginians felt the same way I did.

Allen won the debate...IF...the press doesn't fact check.  Allen is a good politician.  A horrible Senator, but a good politician.  He followed the Republican rule...it is okay to lie if I don't get called on it right away so it blows up in my face.  Allen is not the idiot people say he is.  Webb did a  good job.  He spoke for all of us.  However, it is up to US to ensure that the people know the facts.  Allen lied repeatedly.  Will the press catch him?  This is where LTE's are SO ESSENTIAL.  Also, reminding people that Allen supports Bush in nearly everything he does.  He is NOT an independent thinker, just a stooge. 

I thought Webb was a breath of fresh air, and Allen sounded so . . . . pre-Katrina.  Same bogus Republican crap.  The difference is the people are fed up.  Allen started out by saying "I don't recall saying that word", which was so lame-o politician speak for yes, he did say it. 

The only answer Allen gave that was a winner was about the Foley scandal -- unfortunately, that was HIS party, so it's not going to help him.  I could hear the screetching sound of Allen throwing Hastert under the bus . . .

Hey.  I don't necesarily agree with you, but I am giving you a 4 bc I think that you are not a troll.  I also think that there is something to be said about listening to Allen get to his base.  He mentioned all of the words they do not want to hear; Hilary, Kennedy, taxes, taxes, taxes...Webb did it too, we just don't hear it as much bc we "get it" and don't need the buzz words.

I think Webb won, personally, bc I think Allen looked bad.  But then again, I watched it live, so I missed all the polished TV look aspect of it.  Watching them talk in a silent and anxious room is different, and Allen didn't look on his game tonight.  But he was on the defense and he attacked, in that fake cowboy way. 

We'd love for it to be over with the debate, but double the volunteer times and double the LTE's bc this race isn't over.

Yeah, I think that "come home to the Democratic Party" was pretty good.  Webb needs the independents and soft Republicans to break to his side.  With national trends favoring Dems, he may get them.  Allen clearly tried to motivate his base with the "Hillary, Kerry, Kennedy" thing. 

Allen looked too rehearsed but he wasn't trying to blow it by ad-libbing.  Webb didn't clock him with unrecoverable blow, but, again, didn't really need to put him on the floor.

Webb's reaching out to Republicans was clever and appeared sincere.

I'm not sure either side got a knock out, but I think Webb won on points. 

Yeah, that's a good one VA"Blue".

On balance both candidates did well.  Webb came off a little less canned with the right balance of aggressiveness. 

Allen didn't make any major flubs (I think the "Seikou Island" bit was a complete wash), but he didn't really do anything to advance his campaign. 

He never directly answered any of the charges levelled--as far as big oil contributions, unwavering support of George Bush on foreign policy, dishonest ad campaign etc. 

Webb did a good job of parrying the "Liberal National Democrats" badge that Allen kept trying to pin on him.  On balance I think this goes to Webb.  It wasn't a blow-out, but he probably did just enough.  Webb's closing statement was solid. 

and is traditionally conservative?  It is not a bastion of liberal thinking.  Webb has the base, now he needs the cross-overs to break 50% (or one vote more than Allen).

but, if you are running as a democrat why do you constantly talk about republicans aligned with you and not democrats.  I want the democrats to stand up and be heard.

I'm still curious to know what your definition of "democratic ideals" is (actually it should be "Democratic ideals" since it refers to a party ideology, not a system of government).

As far as the party line goes on social issues such as abortion rights Webb is in line with the Democratic orthodoxy (e.g. favors abortion rights).

As far as labor issues go, Webb is much more in line with traditional Democratic values than Schumer or Hilary Clinton.  Webb is closer to the values of Midwest Democrats such as Carl Levin who is decidedly pro-labor union.

There is also a difference between the traditional Northeastern Democratic model (e.g. similar to Kerry and Kennedy) and the more centrist Virginia Democratic model (e.g. pro-2nd Ammendment, social moderates such as Mark Warner and Tim Kaine).

"Democrats say something about Jim Webb working for Reagan, and I tell them I'm tired of talking about people going to them, I'm glad and proud to have someone come to our team!"

Stop with the stupid belly aching. You can put any damn label you want on Jim Webb, but he will always be straight forward, honerable and a stand up man.

Webb isn't Kennedy, Clinton, or Kerry.  He's a moderate along the lines of Chuck Robb--slightly to the left of John Warner--especiallly on economic and social issues.

George Allen knows this.  His handlers know this.  And his campaign staff knows this.  This frightens them because moderate Democrats ala Mark Warner and Tim Kaine have done very well in statewide races.

I'm curious how do you define "democratic ideals"? 

but the analogous statement is devastating to Allen.  E.g., tie Allen to the the most recognized female Republicans: Katherine Harris, and Jean Schmidt.

A lot of netroots/liberals actually don't like these guys either due to trade agreements.

Now Jim Webb needs to warm up to his audience.  Get loose Jim.  Take the gloves off.  Tell Virginia what a better Commonwealth and a better nation looks like.  Make it personal.  Draw some blood and make sure it has your handiwork on it. Fight. And smile like you are enjoying it.

  Webb looked tired to me this evening.  However, as an independent I was totally able to see why I support Webb. allen came over as a standard politician with one eye on opinion polls and the other on focus groups. Webb came across as a person giving his sincere opinions.
I couldn't help but laugh at how often allen referred to Warner and I as if we are the best buds.  It is obvious who the most popular senator from Virginia is.  Strange I didn't see allen standing next to Warner when he took on the bush administration to try to put America first.
  I would like to have seen Webb get more aggressive with allen over the Afghan and Iraq wars which are clearly weak points for the bush administration and allen. 

Webb was great, very composed and he stayed on topic. He also stayed within his time limits, unlike Allen.
Which makes him come off badly. I mean they had to beep you TWICE George, and you kept talking.
I guess when you practiced your answer, you went a bit quicker.

Webb won hands down. Am I biased? Yes. But Webb won, Allen was obviously so prepped that I am not unsure his toenails weren't pink and his hair wasn't moussed.

Jim did great. I am proud to support him for Senate.

Felix is a good politician but also a lying sack of shit. I hope the press get's him on that too.

Make no mistake about it.  Debates are about the undecided not those of us believers.

The "U's" are trying to make a decision based on, primarily, "is this what I had in mind when i voted for this guy last time?"

Webb was thoughtful, smart, focused, but he really blew it when Allen was stumped on the Island question.  Webb should have just waited as the silence got louder and louder!

Go Jim!

b

They propagated the Sergeant Major Dan Cragg "badboys in Watts" lie. It's up to Jim.  He can't just stand there and let Allen make shit up about him "raising your taxes $2,000 a year". Get him killer.

It's so refreshing to listen to someone and not know what they are going to say because you've heard it a million times.

I especially liked his closing statement...telling republicans to come home to the democratic party.  And when he said, regarding lobbyists, "I won't be bought" - it was real and sincere, not the usual politician making a promise. 

I thought Webb did well.  He didn't come across as the slick, practiced, Washington speak, politician.

Why didn't Webb ask Allen about the stock and not reporting to the SEC? 

George Allen just comes across as a mean, contemptous, bully.  I like him less every single time I see him.

Webb's closing was wonderful.  When he puts a little emotion into his words it really works.  He needs to do it more often.

It's all going to depend on if Virginia wants the same ol, same ol, or if they want a thoughtful, extremely intelligent, Senator.

I pick Webb by a mile. 

On several fronts.  Allen looked like the buffoon he is when his convoluted ramblings went on so long he couldn't even ask his first question--which I thought Webb handled quite well.  Plus Allen looked annoyed and frustrated when he was forced to stop.  Something else I enjoy.  I loved the Shikoku Islands question.  The blank stare, and the history lesson that followed.  Webb had a much stronger  closing.  If I hear one more time about how grateful he and Susan are for the free ride we've given them I'll be sick.  I'll pray George, just like you asked.  Maybe not what you hope for though.

Go Jim.

Sorry, but Jim Webb did not do well in tonight’s debate.  I watched with my son and six of his closest friends.  All are liberals who will vote for Webb and will not vote for Allen.  Yet, it was their consensus opinion that Jim did not do well tonight.  The first question from the panelist regarding the national debt was thrown across the middle for Jim to hit out of the park.  He missed. He did not clearly state that the Republicans have adopted a “borrow and spend” policy that has left a debt that our children and grandchildren will have to pay down for generations.  Instead, he correctly described the crisis in terms of economics 101.  Unfortunately, it went over the heads of 90% of Virginians. 

When Allen asked about numbers of Virginians who “benefited” from tax cuts, immediately one of the young wise guys in my living room shouted, “the richest 1% in the state.”  I wish Webb could have thought as quickly.  Webb was accurate, but imprecise and way too cerebral for the majority of Virginians. 

Moreover, while it may seem admirable for Jim to distance himself from the debate about Allen’s racial insensitivity, etc.  Allen is hammering him over a 27 year old article while claiming he should not be criticized for his actions of 30 years ago.  Webb did not call him on it in clear forceful language.

On the merits, Jim Webb was right.  He lost on style points and I am a big supporter of Jim Webb.
********
To Jim Webb,

Allen fights bare fisted, and dirty.  Forget the Rules of the Marquis of Queensbury.  Take off your gloves.  And forget what you learned in your courses in discursive logic.  In the final weeks you are speaking mainly to people who think, for the most part at the level of the reptilian brain and – on a good day – at the limbic brain.  Repulsive as it may seem, you have to go to their level.

On some of your points, you may be right.  It bothered me a  bit that Jim Webb was not as aggressive as he should have been on pressing yis questions on Sheikiku Island.  Allen should have known that answer and been better informed about it.  Was that his Craney Island flub?  My husband thought he had a deer in the headlight look.  Webb should have just stood silent and let Allen fail to answer until the silence grew uncomfortable for Allen.

On the other hand, it was smart of Webb not to press on the question of racism.  Allen appeared mean spirited with all his snide asides on Webb.  Webb did not have to answer in kind.

The information about Allen's racism is out there.  Webb, personally, was smart to stay on the high road there.

I think if you're a Republican you'll think Allen won because you'll like what he said.  If you're a Democrat you'll agree with Webb.

There really were no knock out punches.  But I think Webb won because he did what he had to.  He articulated his positions and showed Virginia that he was a thoughtful moderate who was knowledgeable on economic issues, committed to economic justice and could be trusted on national defense and security issues.

He told the audience they could "come home to the Democratic Party."  But that wasn't just for "Reagan Democrats" like him.  It was a pitch to moderate Republicans and independents too.

Virginia's most stupid citizens know very well that they have been sucker-punched on Iraq.

This election is about Iraq! 

so I won't troll rate you.  You are right to your opinion, and I can see from your past comments that you are indeed a Webb supporter.  I disagree with you, I think Webb won.  I see your points on style and camera work, but on issues, Webb clearly won.

that I saw - just "unproductive"

Not a personal attack - just a disagreement on their point

I watched the debate.. I realized tonight how much we need to get Allen out of office come November..

Yes.  Absolutely.  The more I hear Allen speak, the more I think he is like Bush, only dumber.  What's the saying?  Whose dumber, the fool or the fool who follows him?  Well, Bush is the fool and Allen is the fool following him.  Does the Republican Party select for stupidity??

Allen really came alive when he got on the subject of tax cuts.  He's a true believer.  I hope that isn't enough for Allen to win the election, but I'm cynical enough to worry that it is. 

What nobody seems to talk about is the stimulus that deficit spending is having on the economy.  The country is experiencing economic growth, but how much of that is due to tax cuts, and how much to deficit spending?

How long can the country sustain the war in Iraq, tax cuts and deficit spending all at once?  What are the consequences going to be when the bills all come due?
I'm old enough to remember the 1970's, so I suspect I know the answer to the last question. 

...the answers are always the same.

Excuse me please.  Where does the idea come across that Webb is running away from Liberal Democrats?  If that were the case I rather doubt that he would have been at rallys with Obama, John Edwards and Hilary Clinton over the past ten days.  Do you think maybe he's trying to reach across the aisle like our former Governor, Mark Warner?  He's also appearing with Bill Clinton on October 19th.  Get over it will you please? He won the Democratic Primary and he's running as a Democrat. He's not running away from anything. There is such a thing as a moderal Democrat and a Moderate Republican yes? The Republicans are terrified of this and thus all the liberal Democrat fear stuff.

Webb more than held his own.  He's dealing with the dirtiest of dirty politicians.  Hard to go against someone who lies through his teeth through 80% of the debate.  I hope the newspapers and reporters do their homework and nail Allen on all of it.  Kudos to you Mr. Secretary for voicing that you plan to vote NO on the Marriage Amendment.
Allen has the same old tired bunch of bs about raising taxes, liberals, Hilary Clinton, etc.  Makes me want to throw a shoe through my TV set.  He might as well have had Hannity standing up there for him...Next thing we know he'll have Susan running in his place.

for what it's worth...

Neither candidate did very well in terms of proper debate presentation.  Both hesitated as if they were searching for answers - which doesn't build confidence in the voters minds.  Webb cut in on Allen's time to counter Allen's misstatement of "facts".  While Webb was correct in his counter statements, it doesn't look that good in a debate to cut in on your opponent's time.  And Allen just blathered on like he owned the place, completely ignoring the time limits and answering any question he damn well pleased (even if they didn't ask that question).

Webb appeared to have stronger arguments about the issues.  At one point Allen made some sort of claim Webb's response was complicated/convoluted - clearly an attempt to simplify a complex argument Allen was losing.

Allen was making up Webb's positions (Webb called him on it a few times) and hopefully post-debate analysis will shine the light of truth on Allen's falsehoods.

Webb did miss a few dingers and opportunities to really nail Allen.  For Allen's "two question" question (that should have been only one), Allen responded with "why didn't you answer the second question".  I wish Webb would have given him the "you we're only allowed one" response.  Oh well, overall Webb did get in more jabs than Allen, so no major complaints.

I'm not sure about the Craney payback.  It reminded me of an inside joke - all of us got it (and it was funny), but those who missed the first debate were probably confused.  And in a worst case scenario, Webb will be seen as a dirty trickster - just as Allen was in the first debate.  But this one counted more, so it could backfire on Webb if people don't know about the full history of that question.  Webb should have asked about Allen's stock options and brought honesty in question, especially given the corrupt nature of this congress.

Thoughtful outsiders will probably give Webb a slight win while sound bite driven zombies will probably give a slight edge to Allen.  The consensus from talking heads?  Not sure how that'll turn out.

Net result will depend on how well the spin is.  If the Webb team can clearly and concisely nail Allen on his lies and distortions, in a public manner, they should gain the upper hand with respect to the debate.

And I was wrong when I predicted a boring debate.  There were more fireworks than I thought - it was fun to watch.

with a DVD in the recorder and started to record, my daughter walked in and looked at Allen as he talked and said "I do not trust a person who has that smirk on his face when they talk" (AKA Allen-Bush) then left the room knowing she did not want to be in the same room as the debate went on.
We political junkies knew when Allen was lying and can really bash him, but tonight he went after his base, which he is loosing. He was impressive in his speach and answers, but I do not believe he reached the moderates and middle of the road voters. Those are the ones that if they vote will make this a landslide for Jim Webb. The moderate Republicans and Democrats, if they vote, are the ones to win and tonight Jim Webb reached them. I do not believe they were looking for polish as much as information on the candidates views. Jim came back and interrupted Allen just enough without being rude.
Jim's closing remarks were out standing and away from the normal political rheteric. The debate was nip and tuck till the final comments, then Jim won.

I was there signing from 5pm and I stayed for the debate and hung out afterwards.  I will have the full report in a diary tomorrow.  Let me tell you a few juicy bits, though.  I sat...wait for it...oh my GOD...one row, and 2 seats to the right in front of Dick Wadhams.  Whoah.  Intense, and hilarious.  I think he has a cold.

I sat in back of Creigh Deeds, and it was a really quiet setting, very serious.  It was really great, and I have a bunch of notes I made.

We were all outside for a long time before the debate, signing and then hanging out on opposite sides of the driveway as the Allen supporters.  Everyone yelled, and it was fun in that tense "everybody is aware of the tension between the two groups and they are trying to be good natured about it" way, but the competition and the disconnect is definitely there.  It definitely got crazy after the candidates entrance and there was a yelling match, but more on that later.

I will leave you with this awesome bit of hilarity from outside before I call it a night and report back tomorrow.  We were outside, waving and yelling at the cars that drove in, some would beep and wave to their preferred side, some didn't.  But you KNOW that the Allen supporters had to kick it up a notch.  Seriously.  So as we were yelling and chanting more, and certainly out showing them in presence, someone turned on their car and the stereo and played "I'm proud to be an American."

....

Because apparently, I'm not.  And I should be shamed by a pop country song that SHOULD be for all Americans, not just Republicans.

It's so hilariously lame and kind of sad and disrespectful and almost hateful at the same time, I really am still laughing/shocked about it.

Crazy.

Oh, but the best part was Allen leaving right away, seeing the press be turned away from the door Allen went through and then swarm Jim Webb.  I heard from some attendees there that they felt he was scared off by the stock questions.

Maybe the person was giving an obscure nod to Jim Webb (e.g. when Webb was selected as the Secretary of Navy he had "Proud to be an American" played his first speech at the event in Annapolis, MD--obscure trivia via the great book "The Nightingale's Song"). 

Thanks for something to look forward to, Jaime.

I think Webb scored heavily on substance. Allen was absolutely so rehearsed and stuck to his canned talked points. Allen really is a politician through and through.

Webb could definitely use some relaxing a bit. He was a bit too intense and stiff and not personable enough. But he defintely hit a home run on his closing statement. That was one powerful delivery.

tradesports.com has Webb up $18.

Looks like Webb won the debate !!!

Webb opened at 34, well off the 45 high of last night.  Throw in a few points for Allen overnight and it's back to a 2:1 race for Allen in the gamblers' eyes.

Secrecy in the government can be solved with the Internet???  Huh?  Did he understand the question?  What a doofus!

He doesn't understand that government secrecy is a problem, does he.  He didn't own the problem and didn't take responsibility. A 10 year old can make a web site these days.  It doesn't fix any problems.

he just didn't want to address the issue of our own government spying on Americans without checks and balances.  Bush supports that position and so does Allen.

Webb addressed the question while Allen dodged it.

but still lacks the ability to express his ideas in a way that grabs the common person.  Part of it is his language, part of it is his natural seriousness and part of it today appeared to be some fatigue.  That said, I was pleased with what I saw and I think Virginia voters have the information they need to make the right decision.  The one thing that continues to stick in the back of my mind though is the Marriage Amendment.  Hope I'm wrong.

for the marraige amendment, till I handed her the brocure that the voter regestration off ice handing out. All I had to say was read the second statement. After reading that she said "I that takes away the rights of unmarried individuals, no matter there sexual preference. I am voting against it."
As the election gets nearer more people will read that amendment for what it is.
My feeling is it is going to discourage the vote, not increase it.

This is one thing I'm glad to hear:
On Tuesday, the national Democratic Senate Campaign Committee is expected to begin a nine-day, $1 million advertising blitz on behalf of Webb, according to sources in both campaigns.

http://www.washingto...

So Jim Webb doesn't smile, he is serious, "wonkish" as some say.  So what?  I like Jim's style.  Jim addresses the person who asked the question, he always does that.  Allen looks into the camera when he answers someone's question.  It looks dumb.  And what was Allen's answer on affirmative action all about? 

Allen must be mesmerized by Sen. Clinton. 

I thought that overall, Jim did just fine.  It will be so refreshing to have an intelligent man representing us in the Senate.

What I'm seeing over in conservative land is a shock and a disbelief that Webb with his positions is running as a Dem.

They hate Clinton.  So Allen is trying to paint Webb with that
DLC/liberal paint so true conservatives won't investigate and realize that Webb is the real deal...
for conservatives actually.

That isn't good.  Allen looked like a robot spewing focus group results on keywords.

George Allen:  phony, polished, lying.  Reminds me of Bush in 2004.

Webb:  pausing.  Sounds like a bureaucrat, now military leader.

Allen:  Liberators?  Get out!  You sound byte scum!

Webb: not strong enough on confronting Allen claiming Webb supports S.2611.  That is an absolutely hated bill across the political spectrum. Webb's positions clearly do not endorse it and Allen is just plain lying trying to hand all of the keywords and sound bytes which would cause conservatives to knee jerk vote against Webb.
Clinton, Kerry, more BS lying.

Webb needs to clarify he is not "with" Clinton, Hillary, Kerry because he is not...he is quite different!

Allen:  I don't recall???

Allen is LYING on Webb's positions!

Allen hogging the time, that looked good.

Get him Webb!  "those aren't the facts just as much as your ads are not the facts!"

Damn straight! 

Webb just needs to start wacking this lying ass to be frank.

high speed internet access, dvds clogging up the courts!!!!

OMG, he's LYING he is so full of crap!  OMG!

LOVE IT!!!!  the Chucacu (sp) ISLANDS!!!!  EXCELLENT!!!!

LOVE IT!!! 

Allen:  SOLUTIONS!!!  ha ha ha he is busy with smear Karl Rove tactics everywhere.  What a joke.

Webb:  Responsibility,  nail it, get 'em Webb!

Foley:  oops, Allen won this one hands down, what can I say.

Webb: STRONG close, very nice!

Conclusion:  Webb won.
But with a caveat.  If VA believes Bush lies they it's not so clear but if they don't, then Webb won because Allen was like a Bush lying clone to me.

PS.  It sure looks like Allen is ramping up for some sort of attack on Webb's personal life...specially his marriages.
I can tell he's putting out some sort of feelers to do some sort of major smear.

And the only time I have ever heard of the divorce proceedings testimony and proceedings being re-opened to public scrutiny is the last Illinois Senate campaign with OBama where the court seal on his opponent’s divorce was breeched by a federal judge. This was justified over a domestic violence inquiry because of the "law maker stature" of a member of the Senate.... Allen should leave that territory alone if he has anything to keep private himself..... and if I remember correctly it was the press and private individuals who petitioned the court, NOT OBama…..

Well, from last night's debate and TV ads, seemingly they don't care about truth or facts or how Allen's house is
in worse disorder.

I saw so many sound byte/focus group knee jerks out of Allen.

He is clearly banking on VA not thinking and trying to hit that reptilian brain response.

(same part of the brain that buys a Hummer!)

I would like Webb to come out and call Allen a plain liar and expose him in any lie.

I also think he should have hit him on those stock options in the debate.

Webb still won though and I'm very glad he didn't back down on Allen's BS smear attempts.

With the recent school shootings and a kid taking an AK47 to school, why was the question of assault weapons not included in the debate?  Heck, I know the answer to that one: nobody wants to piss off the NRA and it's big contributions.  We can't alienate the old boys in the Commonwealth, can we? 

I think Russ Mitchell did a crummy job.No questions about stock options, no questions about education or school shootings at all. Webb did well. Allen was creepy as usual. The only thing Allen said that I liked was his inclusion of Native Americans in the answer about affirmative action.
Webb won.Now we have to work hard for him.

Allen spit out the expected "McRepub" scare lines: taxes, liberal, 9/11, elitist judges, even Hillary made it into the
fray (with Kerry and Kennedy).

Webb, stood his own and was genuine in his replies...it was evident that Jim thought about each question and gave his specific reply. Allen on the otherhand had his check list of "framed issues"  and worked them into replies whether relevent or not to the question. (Oil) Slick stuff.

This is (some of) what I got from Webb: the people of Virginia deserve representation (not the 300,000 lobbyist circling congress), that power flows from the bottom up (we the people)..not top down, we need accountablility and LEADERSHIP in congress, that corporations need to pay their fair share in taxes, that we need a diplomatic solution to the war in Iraq, that experience counts in foreign policy, Allen's "energy plan" is a multi-billion tax credit to extreme profit oil companies. Webb could have said more but I guess thats why there is "paid media". I plan on making another donation to democracy to help Jim spread his message !! 
 

These debates are opportunities to get to know the candidate. 

Allen: An experienced politician, lied his way through, each answer was a list of practiced talking points and mini campaign speeches. With his perpetual smile he appeared to have no range of emotion; flat, boring, predictable.  Like a bad actor playing a politician.

Webb:  He has a deep and authoritative voice yet uses it thoughtfully and gently. That is very appealing.  It was the first thing that drew me to him last April.  He displayed strength, intelligence, knowledge, experience and sincerety.  His answers were interesting and you wanted to hear more. A distinct sense that we were seeing the real person, not a public persona.

I watched the debate live, then again a few hours later on C-Span.  Webb did better than I thought the first time around; however, it troubles me that I had to see the debate twice to notice that.  Ding, ding ... hey George, shut up.

Allen made ad hominem attacks on Webb's supposed allies Senators Clinton, Kerry, and Kennedy.  Ooh, bad Democrats' goin' to raise your taxes.  This tactic might have backfired  because Allen, in preparing to ask his killer question, read two quotes from Webb saying you can't maintain a war and increase revenues at the same time while cutting taxes.  Allen believes that voters are so stupid or selfish they think you can.  Webb should have been more aggressive and pointed out that we're not talking about taxing and spending here, but about borrowing and spending.  We've refinanced the mortgage and we're bragging about all the money we have in the bank now.  Problem is it's not our money.

Webb did well on the Asian bank borrowing issue.

Webb's answer re the minimum wage was correct, but probably went over the heads of 90% of his audience because he talked about the "aggregate versus the specific". 

Allen bragged about his "partner", John Warner.  Webb responded with fond memories of his days on Warner's staff and Warner's kind words to him when he started his campaign.  Hee.

Allen has retreated from his no talking, no retreat talk to let's follow John Warner's lead.  Webb pointed out that just after the election the Republicans are planning to do exactly what he's been recommending. 

Webb also did well in his answer on the constitutional amendment.  He framed it in legal terms and left Allen hanging with his "Family Values" statement.  I wish someone would point out Allen's tremendous disdain for the Virginia legal system when he suggests that Virginia judges would ignore three separate statutes forbidding same sex unions. 

Allen came off as nasty with his allusions to "Senator Clinton funding your campaign".  He also now claims to have amnesia re the n-word controversy. This was a retreat from his earlier "never said it" statements.  I disagree with the people who think Webb should be hammering on this issue.  His response regarding macaca was much classier than that.  He said it was about bullying and not about the language used.  He's taking the high road and I think that highlights Allen's meanness. 

Webb could have hammered better on the 100% Bush support theme. 

Webb pointed out that Allen's entire campaign is built around that stupid 1979 article.  Ran out of fingers counting all the women in top positions in his campaign.

Webb could have been stronger about detainees.  Of course detainees should be entitled to some sort of hearing whether you call it habeas corpus or probable cause or whatever.  Webb did get a punch in by noting that when HE (not George) was at war he worried about being captured and treated according to the Geneva accords.  Webb noted that he supported Warner and McCain's anti-torture positions, which Allen did not. 

Senkaku Islands?  Never heard of them, but then again, I'm not on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.  First time Allen appeared in danger of losing his composure.  Nice payback for Chaney Islands.

Questions disappointed.  That one question to Allen about biodiesel fuels:  where's the controversy?  Also, Webb missed a huge opportunity to attack Allen's environmental record.  Allen's coal comments are about the strip mining presently taking place in Webb's beloved mountains.  Sure, cheap coal may benefit the cities, but the towns in the mountains are being poisoned by the environmental impact.  Why isn't Webb attacking Allen on the environment?  Allen even mentioned off-shore drilling -- this is a proposal to drill off of Virginia!  For heaven's sake, say something. 

I loved how, after the debate where Allen talked about issues, his campaign chose to run the Madwomen of Annapolis ad.  Then the Webb campaign ran the revised version of their rebuttal ad.  Priceless.  BTW, I heard that ad in its even more expanded radio version this morning.  Very good.