Live at the Homestead

By: Lowell
Published On: 7/22/2006 10:07:52 AM

I'm in the control room right now getting ready for the debate to start.  The tension's so thick you could it with a knife (translation: the Webb team is calm, cool, confident and loaded for bear.)

Note:  An official close to the Webb campaign reports seeing an Allen staffer using the restroom and not washing his hands.  Gross, huh?  Just kidding...4 hours of driving at 5:30 AM will do that to you. :)

I'm going to attempt to live blog this things as well as possible. Wish me luck!

Tyler Whitley was just picked up on a live mic saying "[Allen] thinks it's unpatriotic to question the war."
Welcoming remarks by VBA.  Opening of 2006 US Senate campaign.

Candidates enter.  First, Jim Webb. Next, George Allen (cue Darth Vader theme song).

George Allen:  "Patriots all."  Pays tribute to his "bride" Susan and his kids.  His kids don't necessarily think this is much fun. [Note: Allen seems visibly and audibly nervous].  "We're facing challenges right now."  Three important missions: protecting and securing our freedom, America is a land of opportunity for all, preserve our foundational values.  Record of performance based on fact not fiction.  You all know me.  Have advocatge policies that have made it safer for us to live, learn and work.

Jim Webb:  Thank you to VBA and to his wife.  She's a practicing attorney and probably a lot more comfortable than me at this.  Are you better off than you were 4 years ago?  Is this country better off than it was 6 years ago?  Are we more well respected around the world?  Is our economy fairer...is your job secure? 

Are you comfortable with these tactics of slash and burn that have invaded our political process?  People in Congress not afraid to question the President.  I'm not a political figure, but I do have a wide ange of experience that I bring. Marines, 16 years of federal service, commmittee counsel, member of Reagan Administration. We need a fresh set of eyes on the problems that confront us.  There are many problems, and that is why I want to run for Senate. 
Question to Webb from Jay Warren (reporter for WSLS +óGé¼GÇ£ Roanoke):  Aside from opposing the invasion of Iraq, how do you differ from George Allen?

*Iraq was not the reason I decided to affiliate with the Democratic Party.  That took place as I was writing the book, "Born Fighting," and realized that the Democrats have a better record of dealing with the problems of the regular American.
*I was an early voice with Scowcroft and Zinni opposing the Iraq war.
*I am an American patriot.  I would like to see the Administration have a plan.  What would allow us to leave Iraq?  We've got 4 permanent bases in Iraq; what would their uses be?  We need more cooperation with countries in the region.
*Sec. Of State now in Saudi Arabi to bring the countries into the solution to the problem.  We should have done that much earlier with the Iraq situation. 
*The situation in the Middle Eaast would be a lot different if we hadn't invaded Iraq.

Allen:  It's good to write novels, but in the real world we got hit on 9/11.  All the nations saw Saddam as a threat. The reality is that if we hadn't gone in there, Saddam would still be in his palaces, paying parents to send their children into Israel as suicide bombers.  What we're doing in Iraq is to make sure the Iraqis are trained up.  [General George] Casey says that by the end of the year, as many as 3/4 of military operations in Iraq will be led by Iraqis.  The 4 bases, that is a smart thing to do.  They OUGHT to be on 4 bases; good operationally, safer. Ultimately, they will be turned over to the Iraqis.  They will not be permanent bases.  The Senate has voted twice that these bases won+óGé¼Gäót be permeant bases.

Webb:  We've never heard that there's no desire by this Administration that there's an end to our involvement in Iraq.

We could have fought war on terrorism without going into Iraq and allowing the emergence of Iran.  There will never be security in that region until American forces leave.

Allen:  We shouldn't pull out. We shouldn't tuck tail and run. There was a 70% turnout in last election in Iraq.  We won't get that in an election here. It's a tough road, but they are grateful to America for liberating their country. But it's hard to stand up a government. We should not tuck our tail, run, and surrender.  Jim was opposed to the military action to get Saddam out of Kuwait in 1991.

Webb: Gulf War I - I was the only member of the Reagan Administration who opposed the tilt towards Iraq.  The United States does not belong as an occupying force in that part of the world.  I supported containing Saddam Hussein.  I opposed the SAME group of people arguing that we should go to Baghdad.  We were very lucky in Gulf War I that we had Brent Scowcroft as National Security Advisor insisting that we exile Saddam from Kuwait and then go home.

Boots on the ground?  2 years ago I was in Afghanistan as a journalist, not as a politician.  I've got a son in the Marine Corps.  The fiance of my daughter is in the Marine Corps.  According to a survey a few months ago, 70% of American troops said we should be out of Iraq within a year.   We can't do it precipitously.

Allen: We do not care to be an occupying force in Iraq. We can not WAIT to welcome back Virginia troops home safely, but we need to accomplish the mission. We have facilities all over the world - Kuwait, Japan, Korea, German, and we still have one in Cuba.


Question to Webb on Affirmative Action: I appreciate the opportunity to provide some clarification on this. I have always supported Affirmative Action for African Americans.  What happened is when that program changed from a 13th Amendment program...into a wider program, it created difficulties for a lot of people including poor whites.  When Affirmative Action was first enunciated in the Johnson Administration, it was based on the 13th Amendment and the Civil Rights act of 1866 which basically said that the Congress has the power to take such actions as to remove the badges of slavery. That was SPECIFICALLY for African Americans who had suffered generations of deliberate discrimination by the government.

When these programs widened into the diversity programs that they are now, first of all in my view they hurt many many African Americans...25% of African Americans are still in poverty.  And by allowing all ethnic groups other than Caucasians what has happened is that in many cases, poor whites have suffered a double disability.  And that's why I've said that the current structure is, in many ways, state-sponsored discrimination against whites.  If I had my way, I would bring affirmative action back specifically to African Americans.  If we're not going to do that, then I think Senator Allen, having spent time down in Southwest Virginia, would probably agree that we need to take a look at poor white voters.

Allen:  I'm not going to get into his various iterations and treatises on Affirmative Action.  What I believe is what we need to is have affirmative recruitment of people of diverse backgrounds whether they're from Appalachia.  I used the funds Appalachian School of Law (huh?).  Until about 40 years ago, segregation.  I was an original sponsor of Voting Rights Act renewal. Education is power. Efforts and funding to help minority serving institutions - historically black colleges and universities.  Upgrade their technology infrastructure.  Skills and knowledge to apply for jobs that require that talent.  Remedies that make good sense...equality of opportunity.

Webb:  Program was expanded beyond its original intent.  Program was designed to help African Americans remove the badges of slavery.  My wife is Asian...we could go and set up a set-aside company right now.  That's not the direction we wanted to go.

Question to Allen ("You have notably shifted on positions, and have your presidential aspirations forced you to shift?"): I'm sticking exactly to my principles and ideals.  I have always believed that a marriage is between a man and a woman.  I'm for the constitutional amendment in Virginia.  Hate crimes - when I was governor we added race as a category that you could get an enhanced punishment for certain crimes. I was for adding sexual orientation...so long as it didn+óGé¼Gäót make sexual orientation a civil right. I'm not going to stand by and let peoples' right to freedom of religion be infringed.  Ethanol, soy diesel - we're far too dependent on foreign oil. It makes economic sense to support Ethanol now that oil is so expensive. 

Webb:  I'm constantly asked about Allen's Presidential aspirations.  I will never run for President.  Look at a # of George's votes; is he being pulled to the more extremist base, the nominating base, of the Republican Party? 

On stem cells, John Warner voted a different way, Nancy Reagan has been very strong on it. We can save people from a great deal of pain turning around some serious diseases.

I'm a Christian.  I read the Bible almost every night.  I believe that marriage is between a man and woman.  But read the rest of the amendment.   I think that anyone should have a serious problem with the language of this bill.  This amendment could affect heterosexual and gay relationships.

Allen: The constituional amendment that is being put to the people of Virginia simply states that defination of marriage is that between a man and a woman.  Webb is out of touch with the values of Virginia... They may be the values of Hollywood, but they are not the values of Virginia. 

I am very much in favor of stem cell research, but not the kind that destroys a human embryo.

Question by Tyler Whitley to Webb about his own shifts ("Speaking of inconsistenicies, you supported Allen in 2000"):

I like George Allen...not particularly fond of some of the people who work for them.  Ths country has changed a lot since 2000.  I expected strong leadership [from George Allen], and I didn+óGé¼Gäót get it. I also talked about Sen. Robb's long history of service.  No exit strategy in Iraq; the answer that he just gave about the 4 bases and comparing them to Cuba in 1898 indicates that the Bush Administration DO want to be an occupying power in Iraq.  The Senate would be a better place with Robb than Allen.

Allen: I wish Jim were still endorsing me, I'd buy you a beer. Jim's changed his position on a variety of things.  Think back to pre-9/11.  It seems like a short time ago.  But it changed everything.  We were hit here in Virginia at the Pentagon.  What do you do?  Sit back and do nothing?  That would only embolden the terrorists. Saddam was a state sponsor of terrorism.  I wish diplomacy would have worked, but the UN had 17 resolutions that he defied. Saddam was beligerent.  He could have passed on chem/bio weapons to a terrorist group.  Joe Lieberman...Hizbollah is a terrorist organization.  Our country has come back from 9/11 with 4.5 million new jobs created.  Need education..make sure this country is competitive, strong, prosperous, secure.

Webb: Beer on Nov. 8, one way or the other.  3 separate issues with respect to 9/11: Israel, international terrrosism, Iraq. I'm strongly in favor of focusing on international terrorism. "Find them and take them out."  The problem was when we made the strategic mistake of occupying a country in that part of the world. We conflated all three issues.  Hizbollah is a direct result of empowerment of Iran.  Lack of foresight on the part of people making these decisions.

Question to Allen on fiscal conservatism even though we have huge deficits

I support tax cuts.  I think they are a great idea...that people keep more of what they earn. The marriage penalty is ludicrous.  Increase per child tax credit.  Supported education savings accounts.  "Death tax" makes no sense.  Death shouldn't be a taxable event.  Reduce taxes on capital gains and dividends.  Revenues are not the problem; federal government is spending too much.  A lot of this has to do with war on Islamic terrorists, homeland security, and the war  We need fiscal discipline in Washington.  Lineitem veto.  Voted against bridge to nowhere.  Balanced budget requirement.  If Congress doesn+óGé¼Gäót get appropriations done ont time, then they should go without pay.

Webb: Calling me a Hollywood liberal; was Ronald Reagan a Hollywood liberal?  I was holding up the values of the Marine Corps on that film.

Allen has voted many times against "pay as you go."  I support "pay as you go."  Every American family has to go by "pay as you go." That+óGé¼Gäós how you bring fiscal discipline back.

The greatest concern I have right now is the breakup of our society along economic lines. Taxes may have been reduced in some ways for the middle class, but real income continues to decline.  After tax corporate profits are at the highest percentage in our national history, wages and salaries at lowest levels.  Stop the bleeding, the outsourcing of American jobs.

Allen: People are paying lower taxes.  Remember the shock of 9/11 and what that did to our economy? Tax cuts have helped economy be resilient.  We're on a path to reducing the deficits.  Best way to get more jobs is with less taxation and less litigation. Spending discipline. Better jobs from less taxation and legistlation and better education.

Webb question to Allen: You+óGé¼Gäóre a Jeffersonian.  Thomas Jefferson came out of retirment to run for office because he was so concerned that the country was heading towards corporate aristocracy.  You voted 4 times to raise your own pay, and 4 times against raising the minimum wages ($5.15 per hour). How does that fit with your philosophy?

Allen: I am a common sense Thomas Jefferson conservative. I don't like meddling nanny government. Ronald Reagan was a modern day Thomas Jefferson.  Barbary Pirates - Jefferson sent the Navy.  I have voted several times to raise min. wage and to help small businesses by giving them tax relief.  Neither of these passed.  Some of the tax breaks have been for small businesses.  People upgrade their equipment; most jobs are created by small businesses.

Webb: I'm still trying to figure out why you voted 4 times for your own pay increase and 4 times against raising the minimum wage.  Your pay increase is 3 times what someone making the min. wage would make in a year.

Allen: Several issues that matter. Health care affordability.  Would you support expansion of health savings accounts, medical liability reform, small businesses pooling together?

Webb: HSA's - There have been a million more people that have signed up for that since you started advocating it.  That still leaves about 45 million peole that are not covered by any form of health insurance.  More than a million here in Virginia. Even the people that have health insurace have since their premiums go up sharply. Huge issue for the American people.  The target is the doughnut hole.  Lower income, but wage earners, that cannot get health insurance from their employers. 

My friend Mac's son owns a restaurant in Nashiville.  He has no medical insurance, got cancer, came out with $65,000 bill on a salarly of $25,000 per year.  It's not perfect, but I approve of the Massachusetts plan.  Everyone has some form of medical insurance.  We need to move to the point that every American has some form of preventive medical care.

Allen: HSA's - a third were previously uninsured.  Medical liability; OBGYN's increasingly unaccessible to women.  Small businesses ought to be accorded the same as big corporations.

Webb: Let me take a moment to talk to you about heroes. I like football, but football is not life. My heros are those who step up and risk loosing their lives.  Heros like Mac and those that served with him and me in Vietnam.  I believe that the young men and women who are serving today deserve something better.  Do you support the idea of a World War II GI Bill for these people, and if so, why haven't you introduced it?

Allen: You+óGé¼Gäóre right.  Those that serve are genuine heros.  We are so greatful and thankful for those that are serving their country. Hardest thing I have to do is read about someone losing their life by an IED.  I have worked to get Guard and Reserve on Tricare.  Improved benefits for military to get tuition assistance.  Support the families as well with health care benefits they deserve. Can it be better?  Yes.  I will continue to stand strong for those that are standing strong for our military. 

Webb: I worked on veterans issues for 4 years.  The Montgomery GI Bill is a peactime bill.  It might seem like a small thing to a lot of people but it+óGé¼Gäós not.  It's the greatest thing we can do...just like WWII veterans: full tuition, monthly stipends. That is well within your power right now.  Do it next week.

Allen:  If the Senate didn't move at the pace of a wounded sea slug, I would.


Allen: Jim, what's your position on Craney Island?  Where we put our dredge material?

Webb:  What's Craney Island?

Allen: It's in Virginia.  Where we put our dredge materials.

Webb:  I'm not a career politician, I'm not going to make stuff up.  I am a leader, will sit down with people like Tim Kaine and come up with a solution.

Allen: This is part of how people makes decisions on who to vote for.  This is a long standing issue.  It is important that a senator from Virginia understand these long standing issues.  And this is a very important issue.

Webb:  You didn't know about the peacetime GI bill either.

Question to Allen about Jeffersonian conservatism, military tribunals, wiretapping ("How does the modern days conservative support the modern day alien and seditions act?"). Not an accurate characterization.  Intercepting communications is part of prosecuting the war.  I think the authorization for use of force was adequate authorization.  Roosevelt in WWII didn't ask if we could intercept Japanese or Nazy communications. 

As far as Guantanamo Bay is concerned, he Supreme Court has made it+óGé¼Gäós decision.  The vast majority of those at Gitmo are detainees; never in a time of war would a detainee be releaed. 90% of those folks are enemey combatants. Given half a second, would love to hit America.  We are going to comply with the Constituion, wer are a nation of laws. 

Webb: I wrote a novel on unconstitutional tribunal/Japanese general being put to death after WWII. Did a lot of research on that issue.  I would agree with Allen to the extent that if these people have been identified as operatives they should be detained until such time as to get them repatriatriated.  But at the same time, we have to be very conscious that the rest of the world watches what we do.  We must be careful of what we do, so we can retain the moral imperative.  We can't expect one sort of treatment when OUR people are taken prisoner or hostage and a different one for foreign nationals.

Wiretapping - concern is that we are not only a nation of laws,we are a federal system that has checks and balances within our system.  There is always a potential within the system for abuse.

Allen: Guantanamo they are clearly following the spirit of Geneva.  It is important that we are perceived as following the spirit of Geneva.

Question to Webb on outsourcing:  I believe opposition to outsourcing is consistent with moving Virginia forward economically.  Consistent with societal fairness.  We're over the barrel with regard to outsourcing, particularly with regard to China.  Strategic vulnerbality vis-a-vis China. China is financing a huge portion of our national debt.  WTO - no provisions to protect American workers.  If international laws were put in place, 70% differential would exist in our favor.  Add 40% differential with overvalued currency.  American worker has to compete with 100% differential. Corporate profits up, Americans losing their jobs.

Allen:  China cheats.  Currency, intellectual property.  Need to enforce trade agreements.  Lots of prodding to get this done.  Noone is worse than China; you're right about their threat military.  Can't put up barriers.  We have to have educated work force, right tax policies.  I want America to be the magnet for the best minds in the world.  When I came in as governor, there wasn't a single semiconductor plant.  Last year, #1 export from Virginia was semiconductors.

Webb:  Corporations are encouraged to take money and keep it overseas due to tax loophole you voted twice against repealing. 

Allen:  I do support scientific research.  H1-B visas vitally important to our tech sector in Virginia.  For us to compete, we need to do it with more than 40% of our population.

I'm for stem cell research, but not the kind that destroys a human embryo.  Dozens of diseases being treated with adult stem cells. I'm very much in favor of that research.  Embryonic stem cell research - I don't think the Federal government ought to fund it.  If California or the private sector wants to fund it, that's fine.

Webb:  Allen supported it in '01, no longer supports it. Vast majority of scientific community supports it.  I wouldn't want to replace my logic with theirs.  This is an approach to serious medical deficiencies that can be put into place now.  These embryos are already scheduled to be destroyed.  Nancy Reagan, John Warner understand this.

Allen: Advance science without moral or ethical controversy.  Private sector not prohibited from doing this.  Science is wonderful; our knees will get regenerated in the future.

Question to Webb about Supreme Court: From the information that I had, I know I would have voted for Justice Roberts.  I believe I would have supported filibuster against Alito, because there was not enough info on the table.  Rush to get business done rather than carefully held considerations of all different aspects.  I've gone through 2 confirmation hearings; these are extensive proceses.  We've fallen into the rhetoric of character assassination, slash and burn campaigning and governing.  Accusations of raw political motivation instead of sorting these things out.  We need to show respect to Administrations of both parties.  I do support Roe v. Wade but I don't have litmus tests.

Senatorial courtesy should take place when leadership of one party asks for more time to consider a candidate.

Allen:  Confirmation of federal judges is critically important...preserving our values.  Federal judges strike down the pledge of allegiance...say you can desecrate the flag. They define marriage, allow the Boy Scouts to be attacked, allow the government to take peoples' homes (New London).  Amending the Bill of Rights by judicial decree.  What is the person's judicial philosophy.  Will they fairly adjudicate disputes? Need to look at individuals on their merits, not on partisanship.  Roger Gregory.

Webb:  Your so-called buddy Dick Cheney - bring him in to campaign for you.  I refused to shake John Kerry's hand for 30 years.  This is a party process.  I will work with John Kerry, as well as Republicans like Chuck Hagel, John McCain...

Question to Allen on Bush Administration: I've agreed with President on a variety of issues (laughter by audience).  You can all second guess.  I disagree with the President on immigration reform  We need a real fence, more detention capacity, stop-gap use of Guard forces.  I very much disagree with President on this.  I agree with the President on cutting taxes.  I very much agree with the President on energy policy.  Deep sea offshore Virginia exploration for natural gas.  Biofuels.  On most of the issues, we agree.

Webb:  When 2 people agree with each other 97% of the time, one of them doesn't need a job.  Allen received large campaign contributions from oil companies; supported tax breaks for those companies.

We need to regain control of our borders.  Corporations' employment of illegals ia a big problem.  We must return to the rule of law.  We need to sort out illegals who are here in a way that is humane but also effective.

Driving down wages of people already here.  We don't need guest workers.

Allen:  With regard to Bush, it's easy to kick someone when they're down. We're going to use the acronym R2-D2 on you for changing your positions on illegal immmigration.

Webb: I'm a writer with 2 million words out there.  I am an opposition researchers' dream when you can take this phrase and that phrase.  I was a Democrat...my family believed in the principles of Andrew Jackson and FDR.  I left the Democratic Party on issues of national security.  Watching what happened after 9/11, an extremist fringe took over the Republican Party on foreign policy.

An administration that really works - the Reagan Administration.  Ronald Reagan was a leader; set basic principles out.  He was not someone who would have tolerated the slash and burn politicking the last few years.

I give the Clinton Admin. a great deal of credit on economic policy.  My criticisms of the Clinton Administration were based on anger over Vietnam.  That anger fell away after 9/11.

Allen:  Reagan inspired me to get involved in politics.  Reagan would come to Rams football practices.  As Governor, I wanted to bring forth a renaissance like Reagan did.  Strong national defense, strong economic security, high academic standards.  Reagan was criticized for calling the Soviet Union the Evil Empire.  Yet millions today are tasting the "sweet nectar of liberty."

Webb: Ronald Reagan didn't bring down the Soviet Union by invading Czechoslovakia.  I have another Presidential hero - Andrew Jackson.  Jackson's precept was that you measure the health of a society not at its apex but at its base.  I think Ronald Reagan would be wondering what's happening to the average American worker today.

CLOSING STATEMENTS
Allen:  Thanks for this competition of ideas.  Susan and I have worked for people of Virginia.  This campaign should be positive and constructive.  We do need to be unified to secure our freedom.  We are facing challenges all around the world.  Essential that Virginians and Americans stand strong for freedom.  Allow Susan and me to keep working for you.

Webb: Thanks.  It's been an experience to be up here with you. There are ideological and other differences; need to keep talking about issues. Ronald Reagan speech in 1964, right after he switched parties, we shouldn't have to choose between left and right.  In America, weshould choose between up and down. The old labels of liberal and conservative no longer apply.  Don't allow slick consultants to drive wedges between us.  Not class warfare to say that economic differences are growing. I would like to see a Congress where people with independent spirit work to solve these problems together.

Lowell Feld is Netroots Coordinator for the Jim Webb for US Senate Campaign.  The ideas expressed here belong to Lowell Feld alone, and do not necessarily represent those of Jim Webb, his advisors, staff, or supporters.


Comments



Bring. It. On. (Greg - 7/22/2006 10:20:48 AM)
eom


Not getting into so-called 'treatises' (Mimi Schaeffer - 7/22/2006 10:51:31 AM)
Not getting into so-called 'treatises' is what got is in this damn mess in the first place.

A smile and a prayer ain't going to fix the problem; and neither is stay the course.



Appalachian School of Law... (Mimi Schaeffer - 7/22/2006 10:58:34 AM)
Oh, so now the goober is slamming the Appalachian region.

What an idiot!



COMMENT HIDDEN (I.Publius - 7/22/2006 11:13:28 AM)


correct (hrconservative - 7/22/2006 1:08:06 PM)
I agree. I was at the Thelma Drake / Phil Kellam town hall today, but not this debate. I wish there was video. I hate reading the text version. I have not seen anything that we did not already know about both candidates, except that Webb would have voted against Alito.


Webb went to Georgetown Law (DanG - 7/22/2006 2:07:20 PM)
Nothing to do with an Appalachian Law School.  I do wonder what that means.


For the record, I took this down as accurately as I could (Lowell - 7/22/2006 4:54:38 PM)
But thanks for constantly insulting my integrity.


A transcript will never satisfy the Allenistas. (Bubby - 7/22/2006 5:22:08 PM)
Jim Webb needs to drag George Allen out into public and put the wood to him in front of some TV cameras.  Otherwise how are the FoxNews viewers ever gonna know?


webb missed a chance on taxes (teacherken - 7/22/2006 11:06:51 AM)
tax cuts is shifting our bills to our children and grandchildren so that the wealthy supporters of George Allen and George Bush can live high off the hog.

If this is really a war, you pay for it.  You don't cut taxes in wartime.



teacherkens comment (KathyinBlacksburg - 7/22/2006 2:41:48 PM)
I agree (about passing on the bill to our kids), except I am even more cynical about whether the bill will even be presented.  What the neocons want is to destroy and disrupt all federal programs, indeed all private sector pensions too and give us "on-your-ownership."  Every huma sevice will be up to us to either purchase or do without.  They'll say "whoops, can't have programs anymore," except Homeland Security and the Defense Dept. We'll stilll be expected to finance neocon hegemony.  The sick can forget it.  Social Security and Medicare will be a thing of the past.  Schooling will be up to us (to teach our children and grandchildren), or use private (mostly religious) schools.  This is intentional bankrupting, IMHO. 


Webb is a leader (Alicia - 7/22/2006 11:09:27 AM)
with class
Allen is a sound byte name caller who comes off like an arrogant ass.


ideas? (hrconservative - 7/22/2006 2:41:19 PM)
Thank you for adding to the intellectual. . .

Can we please debate ideas?? Or were trying to make a poem with your words up there?



COMMENT HIDDEN (I.Publius - 7/22/2006 11:12:05 AM)


For the simpletons (or those who pretend to be). (Mimi Schaeffer - 7/22/2006 11:22:40 AM)
Devout Christians could give a rat's butt whether is shacking up with their girlfriend or boyfriend and signed a lease, accordingly.

What this bill would do is ban such contractual arrangements.  The good news is a Court in North Carolina (I believe, or South Carolina) just ruled over-arching bills are unconstitutional.

So even if this horrid bill passes, it will not pass muster, unless...an activist set of judges ruled the Constitution is unConstitutional.

And by the way, when Webb says he reads the Bible every evening, you can take that to the bank. The guy can quote verses and knows exactly from whence they came.



It's an amendment not a bill (Alice Marshall - 7/22/2006 11:37:37 AM)
So even if this horrid bill passes, it will not pass muster, unless...an activist set of judges ruled the Constitution is unConstitutional.

It is a constitutional amendment precisely so reasonable judges cannot throw it out.

The only possibility will be to have the US Supreme Court throw it out, and the Republicans have spent years stacking it with right wing homophopes.



Was it a bill before it became a constitutional referendum?? (Mimi Schaeffer - 7/22/2006 11:51:30 AM)
Honestly don't know the answer...just asking:)


they passed a anti-gay marriage law (Alice Marshall - 7/22/2006 12:12:13 PM)
now they put a constitutional referendum on the ballot to draw out their homophobic base.


Since when (Alicia - 7/22/2006 11:30:53 AM)
do repubs own Christianity?
I don't equate reading the Bible with being a repub.


COMMENT HIDDEN (I.Publius - 7/22/2006 11:40:15 AM)


Why should Webb (Alicia - 7/22/2006 11:47:25 AM)
involve himself with decisions of a church?

He seems to believe that the state should allow civil unions and all of the legal benefits of that.

And he seems to believe in separation of church and state.  Sounds good to me.

My own marriage wasn't recognized in the Catholic church since my husband is Catholic and I am not.  So we do not have a valid marriage in their eyes.  Do I need my Senator to tell the Catholic church to honor our marriage?  Hell no!

Does the state recognize my marriage?  You bet.  Good enough for me.



Let me explain it slowly (Alice Marshall - 7/22/2006 11:47:37 AM)
If this amendment fails there will be no gay marraige in Virginia. See any gay marraiges in Virginia now? No? Didn't think so.

What this hideous amendment will do is destroy those contractual relationships in those cases where people have taken the trouble to set them up. It will also make it more difficult to prosecute domestic violence.



Domestic violence argument a farce (hrconservative - 7/22/2006 1:23:08 PM)
The domestic violence argument against the Marshall / Newman amendment is a farce. I have wrote about it here: http://hrconservative.blogspot.com/2006/07/domestic-violence-laws-will-remain.html

and here: http://hrconservative.blogspot.com/2006/07/more-proof-that-marshall-newman.html

The Domestic violence fears were drummed up so people who were against gay marriage would vote against the amendment anyway. The arguments are a farce and will not change anything that is going on right now. Nothing will change in Virginia due to the new amendment. It is amazing that this argument still stands.



YOU can't have it both ways. (Bubby - 7/22/2006 12:22:47 PM)
You either support a smaller, less intrusive government...or you support a government SO intrusive that it tells citizens who they may marry, or form personal contracts with.

The hypocrisy meter is flashing red.



He doesn't support Gay Marriage (DanG - 7/22/2006 2:09:46 PM)
However, he thinks this amendment goes too far against non-married couples, both gay and straight.  That's clearly portrayed in the answer.  Webb's view on this amendment appears to be identical to Tim Kaine's.  Hope that helps.


When do we get a public debate? (Bubby - 7/22/2006 12:41:33 PM)
Virginians deserve public, face-to-face, debates.  As my incumbent Senator, I expect George Allen to show me that he is capable of defending his record - realtime, and without Dickie Wadhams whispering into his ear.  I expect George Allen to make himself available for a number of televised debates. Until he does, he's just another handpuppet Republican who thinks he can govern with press releases and empty legislation.

Now, I'm real glad that the VBA got their private performance. What about the rest of us?  This sort of venue only reinforces the message that politics is for other people - not the average citizen.  And we wonder why voter turnout is so poor. Really?



I agree (hrconservative - 7/22/2006 1:31:05 PM)
I agree (hey, I don't disagree with EVERYTHING  up here!)

I do not see the point of having this debate with it being on TV or at the very very least, radio. Maybe someone will put up a podcast of audio of the event later. There will be a podcast of the Thelma Drake/Phil Kellam event at Bearing Drift today. If he has one for a Congressional election, why can't someone have something for the Senate race? If someone has audio, please post it here.



COMMENT HIDDEN (I.Publius - 7/22/2006 12:43:05 PM)


I am guessing you and 95% of us didn't have aclue what the F%$k he was talking about.. (thegools - 7/22/2006 3:30:12 PM)
Just a hunch.  It sounds like name dropping to me....trying to sound tied in to the state.

I wonder if he just read a brief about it this morning?



name dropping? (hrconservative - 7/22/2006 3:39:23 PM)
Ummm, Allen has held state office, governor, and now Senate.

I think Allen knows more about the state of Virginia than you give him credit for.



You could be right. (thegools - 7/22/2006 3:48:53 PM)
That makes it all the more curious that he has done such a poor job with helping common Virginians.

The only thing I can recall that he did very successfully in the past 6 years...something where he really shined was partisan and did little for Virginia but did wonders for th GOP and the failed Bush Administration:  He headed the Republican Senatorial Campaign Committee when it picked up several seats in 2004. 

(By the way, I have never received a reply from the letters I have sent to his office-not even a form letter.  Our more distinguished Senator John Warner has never failed to return.  Yeah, I think Allen knows Virginia and Virginians...it just he doesn't seem to care about the latter very much (unless they are GOP, I guess)



Well, What is Craney Island? (Alicia - 7/22/2006 1:05:15 PM)
I'm a Virginia native and have never heard of or seen this place.
What and where the heck is it?


Points to hypocrisy (hrconservative - 7/22/2006 1:25:06 PM)
He should not accuse George Allen of not knowing the needs of Virginians until he actually knows Virginia. I did not know anything about Craney Island either, but I am not running to be 1 of 100 Senators.


It isn't Virginia (Bubby - 7/22/2006 1:34:23 PM)
Why, exactly did doofus bring up a federally owned dredge dump? 


Bad Argument, but good point (hrconservative - 7/22/2006 1:47:55 PM)
The Military is all federally owned too. I guess they don't count because of this???. . . . .

I don't care about this thing in the context of the debate. It really isn't that big a deal



Where is Craney Island? (Mimi Schaeffer - 7/22/2006 1:23:37 PM)
Craney Island is right next to Appalachian School of Lies, er, Law, the school George Felix Allen wishes he'd graduated from. 


Craney island...where is it (Beachfool - 7/22/2006 1:29:50 PM)
Craney island is in a little part of Virginia called Hampton Roads.  More specifically, its not far from the M&M tunnel (that's Monitor and Merrimac for you NOVA folks...just a little fun at how people in NOVA sometimes forget about the rest of the state.)  And it is used to dump alot of the material which is picked up when dredging the ship channels and docks throughout Hampton Roads.


COMMENT HIDDEN (I.Publius - 7/22/2006 2:04:55 PM)


AHAHAHAHAHAH (DukieDem - 7/22/2006 2:59:58 PM)
WE JUST HAD A DEBATE ON PUBLIC IDEAS AND BIG ISSUES, AND THE BIGGEST CHARGE YOU HAVE TO THROW AGAINST WEBB IS HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT CRANEY ISLAND IS??????


Is this craney island? (loboforestal - 7/22/2006 3:38:57 PM)

(image from google maps)

more info here (from global security dot org)

If it's refered to as the Navy fuel depot, more people would know about it.



No. (Bubby - 7/22/2006 4:48:50 PM)
I'm telling you, it is an uninhabited dredge dump next to the navy base.  It has all the charm and appeal of a stormwater basin.  Is George Allen on crack?


Yes. Is photo of southeast corner (Don Wells - 7/22/2006 6:18:11 PM)
The area shown in your photo is centered roughly N36d53.350' W76d20.607'.  The roads which are labelled in your photo do not appear on the DeLorme SA9 map.  This fuel storage and terminal area is at the southeast corner of the big Craney Island peninsula.  The Lamberts Point Terminal is directly east across the Elizabeth River from this Navy fuel depot.  The approximate center of the Army 'disposal area' (the big peninsula) is N36d53.803' W76d22.280', about two miles NW of the Navy fuel depot.

The text at the web page you linked talks about the whole complex.  It explains that the big peninsula area is divided into three areas, and that the Army dumps dredged material into one area while the other two drain and dry out, and periodically they switch areas.

The text also explains that the Navy fuel depot has been in  operation for decades, since before WW-II.  It says that one or more of the old fuel tanks developed leaks, and that the ground was contaminated, and that the Navy has a cleanup problem.  It also talks about Hurricane Isabella damaging the docks at the facility.

The facility at the lower left corner of your photo must be a Coast Guard base, because the road that goes to it is named 'Coast Guard Blvd'.



Army Engineer's "disposal area" (Don Wells - 7/22/2006 2:33:51 PM)
DeLorme Street Atlas shows Craney Island on the Norfolk-Portsmouth side of Hampton Roads.  Craney Island is labelled as "U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Disposal Area".  The Island (really a peninsula) projects into the Roads, with Newport News about 2.5 miles away across the water. The I664E (M&M) Tunnel is about a mile west of the Island/peninsula. On its east side, nearly a mile distant, is the Norfolk Navy base and the Lamberts Point Terminal (Norfolk Southern RR coal loading dock).  The map shows the Island/peninsula as a conspicuously blank (no streets) area of about three square miles.


I'm Still LMAO (Alicia - 7/22/2006 2:12:25 PM)
That George F. Allen thinks it's a good thing to agree with George W. Bush 97% of the time.
Talk about two heads deep in the sand.


buried heads (Jerry Griffin - 7/22/2006 4:43:42 PM)
Their heads are buried somewhere, alright, but I don't think there's much sand there.


"H1-B visas vitally important" (loboforestal - 7/22/2006 2:44:15 PM)
No, Mr. Allen, training Americans to compete is vitally important. H1-B is a subsidy to wealthy corporations.


George Felix Allen Jr. and the 97% (KathyinBlacksburg - 7/22/2006 2:46:13 PM)
We have to have the George Felix Allen Jr agreeing with Bush 97%) factoid ready to repeat a thousand times each in the coming months. 


If I hear one (mkfox - 7/22/2006 3:04:08 PM)
more chicken hawk or GOP warmonger say "oh, but we did this during WWII and the Civil War," I'm gonna scream! As a student of history, I know that simply because something was done before doesn't mean it should automatically be done again. Besides, the war on terror isn't either of those at all; WWII was when three tyrannical nations were conquering Europe and Asia, and the Civil War was when half the nation committed treason by taking up arms against the other half. I would hope politicians aren't thinking of committing another Andersonville or internment camps.


RE: Reasoning by historical analogy (JPTERP - 7/22/2006 5:43:09 PM)
I agree whole-heartedly with you mkfox.

This is one of those items that is just an embarrasement for Bush/Allen. 

The Iraq War isn't WWII in Japan or Germany; it's not quite Vietnam either. 

Thomas Rick's in the WaPost raises the comparison point of the French in Algieria in the 1950s in his article today--which seems much more appropriate when you're talking about dealing with a counter-insurgency. 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/22/AR2006072200444.html

Of course, I'm sure that French-Algeria 1950s has problems as well, but at least it's an honest attempt to apply historical precedents to current needs. 

The invocation of post-WWII reconstruction as an example never has had that type of legitimacy--except from a purely crass political angle.  What makes matters even worse is that Bush/Allen seem to assume that the U.S. will necessarily reprise its WWII role.  It's bad political theatre, bad policy, and bad for American interests. 

Ultimately, this misuse of history has real costs in terms of lives, treasure, and our national security.  Rather than looking towards inconvenient, but appropriate precedent, Bush/Allen have used history in a manner that could only generously be called grossly inappropriate. 



Kathy in Blacksburg is right on target.."Bingo" (bladerunner - 7/22/2006 3:37:26 PM)
The ultimate goal of the neocons such as Bush/Allen/Davis is to run the government down. All they want the government to do is protect the Military. That's why their spending, spending, spending...cause they're rich and don't give shit about anyone but themselves. And of course God agrees with them--Not. And Mr HRconservative you know that's how you feel to--you want programs bled to, otherwise you wouldn't be supporting those F'n freaks. Everyone go read what KathyinBlacksburg wrote, and read it before you go to bed, cause that's the bottom line for our future unless America Wakes up.


PS (DukieDem - 7/22/2006 4:27:18 PM)
I love how the Allen campaign hasn't issued a press release about the debate yet. I guess they're either conceeding that Allen got his ass handed to him, or their campaign isn't ready for 'prime time'.


At the risk of being called a closet Allen fan... (va.walter - 7/22/2006 5:23:18 PM)
I must say I was very disappointed with the debate today.  Webb simply wasn't on his game.  He looked nervous, mumbled a lot, did hit Allen when he had the chance and all in all looked out of place.  I spoke to Jay Warren (who I've known for years) on the way out the door and he just shook his head and said "man, I didn't expect it get that ugly."

Now, for some positive.  Jim has gotten the first one out of his system.  Here's what he should learn from this one.  Your slogan is BORN FIGHTING.  PUT UP A FIGHT.  He was way too nice today.  Webb needs to go after Allen, put him on the defensive and create some headlines.

I know many here will say I'm just an Allen guy.  That's fine, say what you want.  What I am is a realist.  I was not a Webb supporter in the primary but I'm looking for that magic so many here have claimed Webb has.  Today, it just wasn't there.

As for the press releases, I was handed the Webb release while I still at the candidates' reception and it was clear it was written before the debate even happened.  Kind of made it irrelevant.  Anyway, fire away.



Screw the VBA. (Bubby - 7/22/2006 5:38:23 PM)
Me, and the rest of Virginia don't care what the VBA saw.  This was just cage fight entertainment for a bunch of conventioneers. What you might be indignant about is why the Virginia Bar Association sponsored this event, and didn't insist that it be televised. Fuck the VBA - they would make the politburo proud.


Huh? (va.walter - 7/22/2006 5:42:08 PM)
Was that post really in response to my post?  I couldn't figure out your point.  FWIW, a lot of the attendees were not VBA members but outsiders coming for the debate.  I was surprised at the numbers (of non-lawywers) although it was still a small group of voters.

One other thing that disappointed me.  First, the area around the Homestead was covered in Allen signs, all on private property (meaning the campaign didn't just run around and put them up.  I know the "sign war" means nothing other than perception.

Take my comments as you like.  I just think we have an uphill battle and if we aren't honest and critique ourselves we won't get better.  Now fire away.



I'm disgusted by the VBA (Bubby - 7/23/2006 10:17:28 AM)
You would think that an organization that trades in the law would have more respect for the concept of an open public debate.  I don't need anyone interpreting the debate - I'm quite capable of judging for myself (if I got the chance).  I'm equally disgusted that the Senator from Virginia didn't insist that the people that pay his salary have a right to see him defend his record in a public debate.  An absolute lack of respect for the citizens of Virginia.


At least this year's debate was in Virginia! (Lowell - 7/23/2006 10:25:54 AM)
Last year's was at the Greenbrier in West Virginia, also early Saturday morning when nobody was paying attention.  I'll never forget the town of White Sulphur Springs, WV plastered wtih "Kilgore for Governor" signs.  Governor of WV, apparently! :)


A ruling elite? (Bubby - 7/23/2006 11:07:42 AM)
What about that private paid debate between Kilgore and Kaine  last year - put on by some NOVA Chamber of Commerce?  The lack of intestinal fortitude by the VBA and these other sponsors is appalling.

No candidate for public office deserves a vote if they can't stand in the public square and defend their positions.  If George Allen won't publically debate, he is unworthy of his office.  Elitism and Cowardice are not virginia values.



Bubby: (phriendlyjaime - 7/23/2006 11:33:32 AM)
Webb team has asked for 5 public debates.

Allen refused.

That should be the end of the story-Allen hates debating Webb, which makes him the obviously weaker candidate. 

But hey; informed people aleady know that, right?



That says it all (Bubby - 7/23/2006 12:42:42 PM)
George Allen has no respect for Virginia voters - unwilling to debate his challenger, afraid to defend his record, man to man. We fought a revolution to rid ourselves of Lords and nobility that thought they were above us. 


George "the Duck" Allen? (Lowell - 7/23/2006 1:01:18 PM)
Or is it George "the Weasel" Allen?


you are so full of it.... (Roger Jarrell - 7/23/2006 11:28:05 AM)
Bubby,
You know very well that the VBA debate has been traditionally a closed event.  The fact is that associations like the VBA...or the Fraternal Order of Police...have an affirmative duty to the members not you and me.  If they decide to keep events closed, you and I as citizens have no standing to tell them what to do.

I once saw John Warner kick Mark Warners ass at an FOP debate in Lynchburg during the 1996 Senate election.  Mark Warner looked like the neophyte he was at that time.  Thankfully for him, the tape never saw the light of day.

This is just round One of a multiple round fight.  Don't get your panties in bunch.

Calm down....breath.



Let me be clear (Bubby - 7/23/2006 12:32:22 PM)
George Allen is a coward, afraid to debate publically.

The VBA and other chartered organizations have an obligation to make debates by elected officials public.

Defending this sort of cowardice and elitism is the true measure of Allen, and his supporters. The lack of respect for the citizens of Virginia and the voter is obvious. 

The Virginia Bar Association agreed with George Allen - Virginia voters are second-class citizens. I say fuck 'em both. No really, kiss my ass.



Great way to make friends and influence people... (Roger Jarrell - 7/23/2006 2:30:19 PM)
there Bubby.

I think you best spend your time working on your candidate's delivery.  From what I heard, it sounded as though he was mumbling with a mouth full of mush much of the time.

And, this little slip of Webb's will likely be a big issue in Tidewater.



Webb signed the VBA's "no use" pledge. (va.walter - 7/23/2006 1:19:14 PM)
Allen did not.  My understanding, however, is that both parties are now planning on using it so I don't know where your last comments come from.


We have a 4th Estate (Bubby - 7/23/2006 2:18:21 PM)
A free and independent mainstream media.  The VBA should have insisted that the event be televised by public media outlets including television, radio and print journalism.  That would have included a pledge to broadcast the debate in its entirety - unedited. 

The only thing I expect to see from the Allen campaign will be "Swiftboat Part II" by Mr. LaCivita.



No-use agreements (va.walter - 7/23/2006 1:36:39 PM)
Bubby, I think we can all agree that no-use agreements do not serve the public and shouldn't be signed.  The VBA is wrong for trying to force once.  However, as Jarding acknowledged in the Daily Press today, Webb signed the no-use agreement and Allen did not.  Therefore, hard to blame Allen for keeping this debate away from the voters.

Webb's camp had signed an agreement that video from the debate couldn't be used in the campaign, but Jarding - the campaign manager - said that because Allen hadn't signed, all bets were off.

"We're taking the video of this and putting it up on our Web site," he said. "We'll be putting it on discs for voters."

Edited?

"We intend to send this debate in its entirety," Jarding said. Dick Wadhams, Allen's campaign manager, said that not signing the agreement was no oversight and that the debate would be used for his man.

"It's on the public record," he said. "Only a campaign that's fearful of its candidate's performance would sign a no-use agreement."



Dick Wadhams is full of it. (Lowell - 7/23/2006 1:41:26 PM)
Clearly, from what you wrote, the VBA pressured the Webb campaign into signing the "no use" agreement.  Since the Webb campaign is the challenger, and the challenger always wants to debate, what choice did the Webb campaign have, really?  Fearful?  What a load of horse manure by Dick Wad(hams). Luckily, Allen's campaign didn't sign so now the people of Virginia can see the debate and make up their own minds.  I'm looking forward to it.


I obviously don't know what went on behind the scenes. (va.walter - 7/23/2006 2:46:56 PM)
You may be right (and you'd certainly no better than I since you're affiliated with the campaign and I'm not).  I have no idea if Webb was forced to sign the non-use agreement.  Probably was.  It really is a non-issue at this point other than in response to any contention that the Allen folks have blocked its release.

The irony of all of this is that both sides will now proudly display it to the public.  Both sides honestly think they won and I expect people looking at it through party goggles will each claim their guy won.  The question will be what will independent people think.  I've made my feelings known so I'll just cross my fingers and hope I'm wrong.



COMMENT HIDDEN (I.Publius - 7/23/2006 7:51:13 AM)


One more thing. Hope this isn't an inappropriate question but... (va.walter - 7/22/2006 5:28:36 PM)
is Webb's wife pregnant?  I haven't heard this discussed anywhere but she looked very pregnant (+/- 7 months).  If she's not, maybe it was just the outfit.  However, my wife swears it's pregnancy which I disputed since I hadn't ever heard it mentioned anywhere.


I just got back to Richmond (thaddaeus toad - 7/22/2006 5:40:18 PM)
Lost in scary southwest VA for 1.5 hours...and as Lowell will attest, I went outside after the debate, came back in...and slipped on the ground and fell.

Always a grand entrance.

I have lots to tell you all but I need to eat.  Later on....



My loving girlfriend (thaddaeus toad - 7/22/2006 5:49:21 PM)
She always posts under my name. 
BTW, why are they hiding the Homestead, I felt like I was journeying to Mordor or something...it took for ever!!

Webb was fantastic, Allen was an empty suit.  I thought Jim should hand him a can-opener, his responses were so CANNED.

Best line:  "Ronald Reagan didn't win the Cold War by invading Czechoslovakia."

Fuckin-A!



southwest virginia (martha - 7/22/2006 6:09:27 PM)
Out of your element? SW VA is, at least, pretty  prettier than Northern VA or the beach area I think..Scary, how? Aren't the people in SW VA the ones Webb defends and uplifts in his book Born Fighting? It's time you start embracing everone in VA not just those who live East of Richmond.

Just reading the notes the blogger took on the debate it sounds like there weren't many fireworks at all. If you want to know the real Jim Webb read the Nightingale's Song...a great picture of a brave, thoughtful leader. Someone who is much better prepared to LEAD than Allen, even if Webb doesn't know diddly about Craney island!



:) I love you all, but... (Kathy Gerber - 7/22/2006 7:31:46 PM)
The Homestead isn't even _in_ SW VA.

But if you are not used to it, driving in the mountains can be very unnerving.

And just to weigh in, I'm a native Virginian and have spent most of my life here (10 years or so in the Carondelet neighborhood of St. Louis which I also love for very different reasons).  I'd say I am a little more familiar with state geo than the average person, but I have never heard of Craney Island. 



It was the mountains that were scary (thaddaeus toad - 7/23/2006 10:29:32 AM)
Jeez.

;)



Martha (phriendlyjaime - 7/23/2006 11:16:44 AM)
not what I said at all, and please don't jump to conclusions or put words in my mouth.  The drive up the mountain was scary, and getting lost on a mountain on the way home was scary.  It has nothing to do with your comment, which I find kind of rude:

*[new] southwest virginia  (4.00 / 3)
Out of your element? SW VA is, at least, pretty  prettier than Northern VA or the beach area I think..Scary, how? Aren't the people in SW VA the ones Webb defends and uplifts in his book Born Fighting? It's time you start embracing everone in VA not just those who live East of Richmond.

First of all, it is incredibly pretty, one of the prettiest places I have ever been.  The people didn't scare me at all, you said that, not me.  I embrace everyone, and I certainly don't think better of those east of Richmond any more than anyone else.  I get your point; you think I think I am better than SW Virginians.  I said none of that, so I guess I have made my point clear, and I hope you understand that you were wrong.



Funny how we all have different perceptions. (Left Wing - 7/23/2006 1:11:01 PM)
My daughter thinks Lynchburg is "scary" because of all the Allen signs!!  LOL!!  By that definition, so is the west end of Richmond...east of Richmond....... 


Can it Ben (phriendlyjaime - 7/23/2006 2:06:30 PM)
But, I reread my post, and it does sound harsh.  And it wasn't meant to be.  I just want to make sure that Martha understands that I am not afraid of southwest Virginians, but I am afraid of mountains and nmountain roads and getting lost on them.  I apologize if that read as bitchiness.  :)


Okay, I've thought about this some more... (va.walter - 7/22/2006 6:27:28 PM)
My frustration is this:  Jim Webb is the challenger.  He needs to debate like he's the challenger.  He needs to go after Allen.  He needs to hit him hard.  He has to generate headlines.  He simply didn't it today (evidenced by the initial media reports).  It looks like the highlight (at least according to the Daily Press, WSLS and most in attendance) was the Craney Island question.  We can't let that happen again.  Webb needs to smack Allen in the face and create a buzz.  He simply didn't do that today.


Daily Press (Kathy Gerber - 7/22/2006 8:05:28 PM)
I just read that thanks to your reference.  What popped out to me was Allen's sea slug remark about the Senate.  That points out one of my pet peeves about incumbents: trashing the very office you hold while claiming free points for holding that very office. 

The Craney Island idea was more of a debate tactic on Allen's part, and I see Webb's asking for additional information as a positive. As for your frustration, I think you make a good point, but it may also have to do with our expectations.  Throughout the primary I recall one particular event which could best be characterized in retrospect as unremarkable.  At the time it seemed apocalyptic.



So was GFA saying ... (Fluvanna Democrat - 7/23/2006 2:43:50 PM)
....he's incapable of moving legislation along in the Senate?  Sounds like it.  We should replace him with someone capable of legislating.