RK ARCHIVE - VIDEO: Dick Wadhams for Allen vs. Dave Saunders for Webb / Why this race is so important!

Right below is the video link from Hardball on MSNBC from Wednesday, June 14 where George Allen's campaign manager Dick Wadhams and a senior adviser for the Webb campaign Dave "Mudcat" Saunders squared off to debate.

This video lasts for 7 minutes and 57 seconds and Dave "Mudcat" Saunders kicked the tar out of Dick Wadhams in my opinion, especially on George Allen's support for the Iraq war. I highly recommend watching this MSNBC Hardball video link:

If this is a preview of the debate to come between George Allen and Jim Webb, then I think that Webb is looking very good and that this will be a serious race!

Below the MSNBC Hardball video link is a Pro-George Allen Virginia Blog from Wednesday, June 14 titled "George Allen vs. James Webb" with on going comments from Allen supporters about this race. Many of Allen's supporters are taking this race lightly with comments like this:

"Anyone thinks that this guy (Webb) has a prayer is fooling themselves. Webb endorsed George Allen. I say this again, He endorsed George Allen. How many people have ever beat someone they endorsed."

Other Allen supporters realize that this is a serious race and that George Allen is in for a real fight by making comments like these:

"You guys are a ridiculous echo chamber. The writings all over the wall. National poll numbers, changing demographics in Virginia, Mudcat+óGé¼Gäós experience in turning out the rural vote+óGé¼-ªAllen+óGé¼Gäós in for the fight of his life."

"If Webb is such a joke of a candidate, then why were Republicans voting for Miller??

BTW, I+óGé¼Gäóll take Webb over LaCivita in a cage-match and that+óGé¼Gäós what it might come to if Webb+óGé¼Gäós service is challenged."

"The overconfidence on this thread among some Allen supporters absolutely amazes me. Please keep thinking it just will be a walkover."

It is very important in my opinion to be constantly watching and monitoring what Allen's VA grassroots supporters are saying among themselves. These are the same people who we will be fighting it out with in the field and on the Internet to win the votes of Virginia voters in the election! Here is where you can monitor them:

We have to know what our opponents are saying in order to run the best possible campaign against them!

It is also very important to remember that George Allen already has the support of Rush Limbaugh and all of his hard core followers nationwide (which are many millions of people) so when we turn up the heat on Allen, you can expect to see many Neocon GOP grassroots activists from all over the country working hard to help out Allen because they want very badly for him to be President in 2008!

That is why this is one of the most important races in 2006 in my opinion because if Neocon ideologue and stooge George Allen were to ever become President in 2008, then Rush Limbaugh would easily become the next Karl Rove and this country will be in even worse trouble than it is in now and will be more divided than ever!

Look at all of George Allen's media transcripts that he has listed on his own website to clearly see that Allen is completely sold out to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and to the hard core Neocon GOP activist base:

Allen would be a total puppet and stooge to these Neocon ideologues if he is elected President in 2008. Please check out these transcripts and ask yourself one very important question: Can you think of even ONE ISSUE that George Allen disagrees with Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity on? I cannot think of one!

What George Allen gets with the open support of Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity (that he already has) would be the campaign help and contributions from over 20 million people nationwide as well as free media attention and air time from them as well as from their clones all over the country which is a very powerful media force!

Here is credible documentation to show that George Allen already has this support that I am talking about:

Analysis and Documentation: George Allen is already the GOP 2008 "front-runner!"

NEWS & ANALYSIS: George Allen launches Senate bid / How to defeat Allen in 2006!

This is why Allen is so potentially dangerous in 2008 and is why it will be very hard for any other Republican candidate to challenge Allen for the 2008 GOP Presidential nomination if he wins this Senate race!

I will end this post on a positive note which is that George Allen has at least three very serious vulnerabilities (they are all talked about in the link above "NEWS & ANALYSIS: George Allen launches Senate bid / How to defeat Allen in 2006!") so Allen can be beaten and we have the right candidate in Jim Webb to beat him!

America needs people like Jim Webb - because we need leaders. We need to put Jim Webb in the Senate. He'll make sure that we make the right decisions on the war - and he'll make sure that we'll make the right decisions to help the people of Virginia.

"I've known Jim for over 20 years. He's a Naval Academy graduate. He's one of the real heroes of the Vietnam War. He was a great fighter - who then got out of the military and chose to serve his country in other ways.

"I knew him when he was the assistant secretary of defense for reserve affairs in the Reagan administration. I just think he's a terrific man, he's a terrific leader - he's the kind of leader Virginians can count on."

June 14: Virginia Democrats have picked Jim Webb to face Sen. George Allen in November. 'Hardball' host Chris Matthews talks with Allen's campaign manager (Dick Wadhams) and a senior adviser for the Webb campaign (Dave "Mudcat" Saunders).

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George Allen vs. James Webb
Filed under: Virginia politics , 2006 Senate campaign by Chad Dotson @ 7:44 am

Well, it was far closer than the Webb-Worshippers predicted, but James Webb defeated Harris Miller yesterday, and Webb is now the Democratic nominee to run against US Senator George Allen. This, despite +óGé¼+ôa near-record low turnout that a state election official described as +óGé¼-£dismal.+óGé¼Gäó+óGé¼-¥ (Note, also, that Miller killed Webb in Wise County; no, I didn+óGé¼Gäót vote.)

After stumbling around like Glass Joe against the worst statewide candidate in recent memory, Webb now gets to face Allen. Sure, Miller would have been an easier opponent for Allen, but Webb+óGé¼Gäós performance in the primary +óGé¼GÇ¥ despite his compelling background +óGé¼GÇ¥ indicates that he+óGé¼Gäós a bush-leaguer when it comes to statewide politics.

Webb better get his act together +óGé¼GÇ¥ he+óGé¼Gäós in the big leagues now.

Glass Joe! That was a brilliant pull. Punch-Out is one of the greatest games ever.

A couple of observations from yesterday take them for what they+óGé¼Gäóre worth:

1. Dropped off my son+óGé¼Gäós summer school carpool in Arlington yesterday morning just before 9 AM and headed to the office. I passed an Arlington County Elementary School that was a polling place; the parking lot was filled (school is still in session this week) so voters are parking on the street. Every car that I saw had a Kaine or Kerry bumper sticker (oft times both) and one had a license plate that read, +óGé¼+ôGWB OUT+óGé¼-¥.
2. Mr. Webb won overwhelmingly (>60% or better) in NOVA. Yes Chad, Mr. Miller won by a similar margin in Wise but I respectfully point out that (according to the State Board of Elections website this morning) Wise had 299 votes counted yesterday. Arlington and Fairfax had 11,934 and 35,226 votes counted, respectively.

The general election is going to be less an election for Virginia+óGé¼Gäós junior senator but plebiscite on the President and war in Iraq and Afghanistan, especially in NOVA.

I hope that Senator Allen+óGé¼Gäós incumbency, accomplishments and fund raising advantage are enough to overcome his opponent+óGé¼Gäós incompetent campaign organization, lack of money and inexperience. But, I urge my fellow conservatives here not to underestimate Mr. Webb+óGé¼Gäós support in spite the above.

Let us not resemble the British and French General Staffs in August 1914 with predictions of a swift and easy victory.

Dave, your right about not underestimating Webb. He+óGé¼Gäós for real. But here+óGé¼Gäós what Allen needs to do on Iraq: Trumpet it. Republicans problems are they have shrunk to the Democratic attacks. Rove said last week that GOPers need to come out hard for Iraq, and point out all the good things that have gone on there+óGé¼GÇ£like a full democratic government in the Middle East. In addition, Allen needs to make the Iraq question not about should we have gone it but should we cut-and-run. Allen needs to corner Webb into basically being for cutting and running or against.

When given the chance, Webb has cut and run the past 20 years. As Reagan+óGé¼Gäós SecNav, as a member of the GOP and now he wants the USA to cut and run in Iraq. He+óGé¼Gäós gone from +óGé¼+ôBorn Fighting+óGé¼-¥ to +óGé¼+ôBorn Quitter.+óGé¼-¥

Rove cleared the very day Jim Webb wins? Coincidence? I think not. Democrats are going to be very sorry in November. Webb will either go down in flames or switch parties the minute he wins. Rove planned it that way.

I nominate George Allen for the best third-string quarterback in the history of UVA football. While George hit frat row, Jim was fighting in the jungles. Hmmm+óGé¼-ªwhose cutting and running?

Anyone thinks that this guy (Webb) has a prayer is fooling themselves. Webb endorsed George Allen. I say this again, He endorsed George Allen. How many people have ever beat someone they endorsed.

Glad yo like it, Kilo. I+óGé¼Gäóve got more of that up in a post on Virtucon now.

Sorry Huey, when former Marine Jim Webb was in the jungle Senator Allen was in high school.

Mr. Webb makes his service a part of his campaign and that+óGé¼Gäós his right. I personally admire his service and thank him for it. That Senator Allen did not serve, and was too young to serve in +óGé¼-£Nam, should not be an issue in this campaign.

There are some Republicans and conservative independents who are frustrated with the way President Bush has handled sensitive political issues.

For those voters, however, Jim Webb has the potential to be the moderate Democrat that offers Republicans to express their dissapointment.

I thought this was a conservative forum+óGé¼-ªthe facts don+óGé¼Gäót really apply do they?? For the record, don+óGé¼Gäót expect Webb to lie down and take it (a la Kerry) when Dick Wadhams +óGé¼-£Swift-Boats+óGé¼Gäó him.

We seem to forget something. Webbers were pretty vicius towards the Millerites. As a result, there is a split in the VA Democratic party. At the moment, he is going to need to do some kind of damage control. As it has been pointed out, Webb was a former Republican. I maintain he is a DINO: Democrat In Name Only. Allen might want to exploit that aspect of Webb and point out why should people vote for a man who has the same ideas as Allen except on Iraq? While we can+óGé¼Gäót take Webb lightly, we need to be ready for the Democrat Blog Bomb Throwers, like VA Progressive, to do their worst.

Webb maybe a DINO, but do you really think the long-time Democrats are going to sit home? They know as well as we that if George Allen scores an impressive victory (55 percent and above) then it is a springboard to a presidential run and that is something they will do anything (including nominating a former Reagan official) to prevent. Maybe long-time Black Democrats sit this one out, but you know Webb and his people will work hard to reach out to them. I agree with Mason Conservative and others, don+óGé¼Gäót be afraid to talk about Iraq and defend the action, independents and moderates will respond to that. Allen also needs to trumpet his strong opposition to illegal immigration, that is a winning issue for the GOP in most places.

Despite the low turn out, despite Miller being so lame, Webb started this race late, and as a rank amature (still amaturish). But absolutly dominated a campaing with a two to one dollar advantage, staffed by veterains of two previous successful statewide campaigns.

I also believe that these nascent flip flop charges that have been trying to gain some traction, are just not going to stick.

People gut check this stuff: if Miller could not make it work with hard-core, Republican-phobic activists, what hope is it going to have of sticking with the general public in VA?

Who by the way is sick of partisanship from bothsides, and looking for an outsider+óGé¼Gäós voice.

Here in Albemarle county I know of several moderate Republicans who are already planning on voting for Webb.

It will be interesting to see if Webb can get his game together to take advantage of the trends.

Webb+óGé¼Gäós pro-labor position will surely be a huge asset. Look what it did for Leslie Byrne!

The man prostituted himself to whatever Democrat constituencies he needed to win the nomination, and now he+óGé¼Gäóll run as fast as he can back to the center.

It+óGé¼Gäóll be interesting to see if Webb+óGé¼Gäós +óGé¼+ôI+óGé¼Gäóm a war hero and he+óGé¼Gäós not+óGé¼-¥ campaign (because seriously, will it really consist of anything else?) will be enough to offset the many flip-flops he+óGé¼Gäós done in the past six months.

One thing+óGé¼Gäós for sure, though +óGé¼GÇ¥ he+óGé¼Gäóll sell a lot of books this year. And he+óGé¼Gäós probably assured himself an invitation to the Clintons+óGé¼Gäó +óGé¼+ôRenaissance Weekend+óGé¼-¥ glitterati-fest for the rest of his life.

I hate to point this out, but isn+óGé¼Gäót the Dry Throat the one who spreads rumors about George Allen and Rudy Giuliani being gay?

Or that he endoresed Allen before he was aginst Allen . . . I think that there are a lot of Virginians in the same boat. I think that there are a lot of Virginians real sour on Republicans right now, people who in the past would have given there support to them: I know a some of those people I know.

And please, please trumpet the war. Please . . . yeah, thats just what the public wants to hear, yeah thats right. Make sure you guys tell George thats what he should do.

As far as Byrne goes, she ran an even worse campaign than Webb did and still manged to lose by only a tiny %. Imagine what would have happend if she had got her act together!?

The comment on the split in the Dems is just silly. The Miller supporters never had any real passion for Miller, they where suspicous of Webb and annoyed at the Webblogers.

Now, there would have been a major split if Miller had won: Those Webbies would have thrown a fit. If the Webb camp can woe Wilder, the base will be solid . . . if not, oh well, Deeds didn+óGé¼Gäót have Wilder and he only lost by 300.

And as far as Webb+óGé¼Gäós paper trail, you think thats bad? If he said anything so horrible wouldn+óGé¼Gäót have Miller dug it up? That was one nasty primary.

More likely, things like his Washington OPED before the invasion make him look like a down-right prophet (so much for his campaign only about being a war hero).

That Senator Allen did not serve, and was too young to serve in +óGé¼-£Nam, should not be an issue in this campaign.

While I+óGé¼Gäóll agree that Vietnam service should not be an issue in this campaign, I can+óGé¼Gäót let the claim that George Allen was too young to have served to go unchallenged. George Allen was born on March 8, 1952. That means he was 18 in 1970. He had plenty of opportunity to have served in Vietnam, had he chosen to do so.

But, what should be an issue is Webb+óGé¼Gäós continued advocacy over the years for the military and those who serve in the military. In absolute direct contrast to those who play the +óGé¼+ôsupport the troops+óGé¼-¥ card and have not served, whose children will never serve and do nothing to protect the interests, who indeed, undermine the interests of those who have served our country:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/23/AR2005062301888.html) continued advocacy over the years for the military and those who serve in the military. In absolute direct contrast to those who play the +óGé¼+ôsupport the troops+óGé¼-¥ card and have not served, whose children will never serve and do nothing to protect the interests, who indeed, undermine the interests of those who have served our country:

Hey Huey..It wont be Dick who swift boats him, it+óGé¼Gäóll be the Swift Boat Master, LaCivita who does it, and he+óGé¼Gäóll walk all over Webb. It+óGé¼Gäóll be the Younger Marine vs. the older one. My $$ is on Chris. Also, Webb is a joke of a candidate, I mean com+óGé¼Gäómon, they guy can+óGé¼Gäót decides he can+óGé¼Gäót go anywhere in the GOP so he sells out to the DEMS? The voters know a sellout when they see one and Webb won+óGé¼Gäót fool them either.

You guys are a ridiculous echo chamber. The writings all over the wall. National poll numbers, changing demographics in Virginia, Mudcat+óGé¼Gäós experience in turning out the rural vote+óGé¼-ªAllen+óGé¼Gäós in for the fight of his life.

If Webb is such a joke of a candidate, then why were Republicans voting for Miller??

BTW, I+óGé¼Gäóll take Webb over LaCivita in a cage-match and that+óGé¼Gäós what it might come to if Webb+óGé¼Gäós service is challenged.

The overconfidence on this thread among some Allen supporters absolutely amazes me. Please keep thinking it just will be a walkover.

Aww..Poor Baby Huey+óGé¼-ªer, I mean, Huey. Look, your guy isn+óGé¼Gäót gonna lose. HE+óGé¼GäóS GONNA GET SPANKED. So sit back, relax and watch the artist (ALLEN) at work. ALLEN is a natural born campaigner. Webb just bores his crowds. And if you think Webb+óGé¼Gäós military past is what this race should be all about, I will assume that you were a Papa Bush supporter in +óGé¼-£92, a Bob Dole supporter in +óGé¼-£96 and you must+óGé¼Gäóve surely blasted Clinton as a draft dodger+óGé¼-ªright, RIGHT?! You liberals+óGé¼-ªyou+óGé¼Gäóre so funny.

P.S. Did Webb serve with my Uncle Charlie in the Nam? Won the Congressional Medal of Honor ya know?

You wanna talk about liberals, you+óGé¼Gäóre the ones that sound like stupid intellectuals talking about issues. You think the average voter, not the wonk or the activist but the run of the mill voter, gives two shits about the implications of issues. I+óGé¼Gäóll give you a page out of the Karl Rove playbook since you+óGé¼Gäóve lost your copy.

Candidates are elected by three things:
Is the candidate trustworthy?
Is the candidate strong?
Does the candidate care about people like me?

Oh and PS, I think the only thing Allen has in common with art is the finger painting he did for his degree at UVA. Mary Sue Terry ran the worst campaign in modern VA history, and Robb was a wounded duck. Let+óGé¼Gäós see how he fares when he can+óGé¼Gäót rely on his party label to propel him to victory.

I suppose you don+óGé¼Gäót want to take a chance at my previous question instead of spouting your ridiculous arguement. Time for the third-stringer to take his place on the bench and let a real man take over.

I suppose the Navy Cross, a Silver Star, two Bronze Stars, and two Purple Hearts don+óGé¼Gäót count for anything? You guys are hilarious+óGé¼-ªtip #1: buy a big box for tissues for early November. You+óGé¼Gäóre gonna need +óGé¼-£em. Jim Webb ain+óGé¼Gäót Mary Sue Terry (or Chuck Robb for that matter).

Your right, Jim Webb aint MS Terry or Chuck Robb. I could and most voters could care less what he did in Vietnam. What we do know is he is a party flip flopper and a quitter when things got tough. Webb endorsed Allen in 2000. He knew Allen+óGé¼Gäós record as a rep and governor and he loved it! Webb is Murtha lite.

Fellas, no doubt this is David vs. Goliath (of course we know how that one turned out). Regardless, your stale 2004 rhetoric will not work in this race.

One clarification+óGé¼-ªa veteran+óGé¼Gäós sacrifice and duty to country don+óGé¼Gäót apply because it occured over 30 years ago? A completely ridiculous and defensive statement.

His history in Vietnam (nevermind the rest of his career) matters because he knows what combat is all about. Hence+óGé¼-ªhow does one flip-flop when they+óGé¼Gäóve stated all along that an adventure in Iraq was misguided foreign policy?

Virginia is going to vote on the Marriage Amendment. If Webb is a no and Allen is a yes, then that will require a lot for Conservatives to split their vote to support Webb and the amendment. Little cognitive dissonance there.

What is Webb+óGé¼Gäós position on the Immigration Shamnesty bill? Allen nailed it - good - with a no vote.

If Webb runs, as I think his recent nominating run indicates he must, like a schiziophrenic liberal/conservative and D/R, he will lose.

If Webb runs hard to the right of the center line, he will be an excellent, tough test for Allen for winning the nomination and winning - even over HRH Hillary - for President in 08.

I could write for Allen if he ran to the right - because I understand, I think, the weaknesses in the Republican Party, message and messengers. And I get Webb+óGé¼Gäós passion. I understand it in my bones. But, I won+óGé¼Gäót. And I won+óGé¼Gäót be asked.

+óGé¼+ôBTW, I+óGé¼Gäóll take Webb over LaCivita in a cage-match and that+óGé¼Gäós what it might come to if Webb+óGé¼Gäós service is challenged.+óGé¼-¥

Thanks for the laugh, that+óGé¼Gäós rich. Nothing can get one taken seriously like a pro wrestling analogy.

But, if I were so inclined to make such an analogy, I would liken the Senate race to Jerry +óGé¼+ôThe King+óGé¼-¥ Lawler putting the sleeper hold on +óGé¼+ôSuperstar+óGé¼-¥ Bill Dundee. Yeah, I guess I+óGé¼Gäóm a little bit older than the rest of you.

Campaigns are usually won by the candidate who sets the agenda of the canvass for votes.
It appears that James Webb and his campaign would like to focus on the Iraq situation.
It also appears that George Allen+óGé¼Gäós team is going to spend a lot of time talking about +óGé¼+ôgay marriage+óGé¼-¥ because of an expected high turnout in favor of the constitutional amendment on the ballot.
I think the interesting aspect of the campaign will be who is successful in establishing the theme in this election.
My twisted logic would conclude that Webb should be successful b/c the job of a Senator is much more concerned about a war/rebuilding situation than with an amendment of the Virginia Constitution of 1971.
As for all of this ridiculous carping of +óGé¼+ôSwift Boat+óGé¼-¥ 2006, forget it. Allen+óGé¼Gäós team is too smart for that. Virginians are very respectful of military service. If you go after somebody in that fashion you better damn well have reason to engage in those tactics. If you are proven to be unnecessarily attacking someone+óGé¼Gäós service record, it will boomerang violently against you. Allen+óGé¼Gäós team understands it, and I am positive they are not going to attack Webb+óGé¼Gäós military record.

I hear Governor Warner has cancelled his appearances with Webb! The race is over!

Wow, the comment boards over here are starting to look as trashy as some of the national blogs. My condolences to Mr. Dotson.

The +óGé¼+ôquitter+óGé¼-¥ and +óGé¼+ôflip-flop+óGé¼-¥ arguments I think will be largely unsuccessful. As far as leaving the Reagan Administration in 1988 goes, unless there+óGé¼Gäós a backstory there somewhere I don+óGé¼Gäót think that+óGé¼Gäós any more significant that Ari Fleischer or Scott McClellan or Colin Powell or anyone else who leaves an administration, especially in the last year of the term. If there is a backstory there, someone had better start telling it because otherwise no one is going to know and no one is going to care.

As far as leaving the party, that may play well with partisans but it+óGé¼Gäós not going to play well with the average voter, who is apolitical, or independent, or a moderate Republican who+óGé¼Gäós been thinking about leaving the party himself. (Hell, even some conservatives are thinking about leaving the party, but for the opposite reason.) And, after all, party affiliation is not+óGé¼GÇ£for most sane people+óGé¼GÇ£a permanent, irreversible trait. I suspect most voters would prefer a candidate who doesn+óGé¼Gäót care about his party affiliation as long as he remains reasonably consistent in his ideology.

Finally, I+óGé¼Gäód even be careful about the Iraq issue. Even if Webb had, like Kerry, supported the war and then opposed it, there is a considerable number of voters who have done exactly that since the 2004 election. But Webb opposed the war from the beginning. I don+óGé¼Gäót know enough about him to know his motivation, but if his justifications in 2002 seem prescient in hindsight, I think it+óGé¼Gäós going to be a dead issue for Allen.

If foreign policy becomes the election battlefield, this is going to be a bad race with a lot of landmines for both candidates. Allen has to make this race about domestic policy to neutralize Webb, who has a natural advantage in foreign policy and neither experience nor advantage in domestic policy. As a former governor, Allen should be able to dance circles around Webb on domestic policy. Unfortunately, because Webb hasn+óGé¼Gäót made any statements on domestic policy that I know of, a domestic policy campaign is going to deprive Allen of the +óGé¼+ôquitter/flip-flop+óGé¼-¥ message. And that+óGé¼Gäós a good thing.

Comments

Hardball Transcript for June 14: Dick Wadhams for Allen vs. Dave "Mudcat" Saunders for Webb (Mitch Dworkin - 6/15/2006 1:10:35 PM)

Here is the transcript of this dialogue for those who could not watch the video or watch Hardball last night:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13340544/

'Hardball with Chris Matthews' for June 14
Read the transcript to the Wednesday show

Updated: 39 minutes ago

Guests: Brian Bilbray, Nicolle Wallace, Dick Wadhams, Dave Ã¢â‚¬Å“MudcatÃ¢â‚¬Â Saunders, Kate OÃ¢â‚¬ËœBierne, Mike Allen, Richard Wolffe

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. On Tuesday, Virginia Democrats picked former Reagan administration Navy secretary Jim Webb as their man to face Republican Senator George Allen this November. It promises to be a real fight over the Iraq war.

Dick Wadhams is the campaign manager for Senator Allen. He is a Republican. And then we have Mudcat Saunders here, he is the senior advisor or to the Webb campaign. What is the Iraq war fight about here between these two candidates, the senator and the challenger, Webb?

DAVE Ã¢â‚¬Å“MUDCATÃ¢â‚¬Â SAUNDERS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think itÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs clear, George Allen has always been a supporter of the war, heÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs not backed off of it at all. Our guy, six months before the war started, Jim Webb, in Ã¢â‚¬Å“The Washington PostÃ¢â‚¬Â wrote a piece that pretty much dictated what was going to happen the rest of the way, called Ã¢â‚¬Å“Heading for Trouble: Why Do We Want to Be in Iraq 30 Years From Now.Ã¢â‚¬Â

MATTHEWS: So he had the instincts the war was a mistake?

SAUNDERS: Without question Jim Webb did. Jim WebbÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs military credentials are incredible, his understanding of the Middle East policy is incredible, and he had it pegged.

MATTHEWS: Well, Dick, why did senatorÃ¢â‚¬â€I know you to run his campaign, not explain all of his votes, but here you are. Why is he for the war? Why does he think the war made sense from the beginning? We can all argue about it now. Why did he think it was a good war to go into?

DICK WADHAMS, SEN. GEORGE ALLEN CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Senator Allen does support the presidentÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs efforts to help this fledgling democracy in Iraq.

MATTHEWS: Can you answer the first question, why did he support us going to war in Iraq? Most people think it was a mistake now. Why is he with the minority?

WADHAMS: He supported the presidentÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs decision.

MATTHEWS: Wait a minute, was it his decision or the presidentÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs?

WADHAMS: The presidentÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs.

MATTHEWS: But he just went along with it, he didnÃ¢â‚¬Ëœt believe in it? YouÃ¢â‚¬Ëœre hedging. Stood by, went along with. Did he think it was the right decision?

WADHAMS: The issue now in this campaign is what do we do from here forward and this is where the real difference in this campaign comes.

MATTHEWS: IÃ¢â‚¬Ëœve already found a real difference. Your guy thought it was a smart thing to go in and your guy didnÃ¢â‚¬Ëœt think it is.

WADHAMS: This is the deal, that Mr. Webb can talk very eloquently about the decision to go to war, and what he cannot answer is what we do from here. If you look at allÃ¢â‚¬â€

MATTHEWS: LetÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs ask him. What does your guy say we should do?

SAUNDERS: He thinks we ought to develop a two year plan. The first thing we need to do is this administration nor George Allen have either said we need to get out there. We need an exit strategy. There was no exit strategy at the beginning, thereÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs no exit strategy now, because I donÃ¢â‚¬Ëœt think anybody wants an exit strategy. Jim Webb has made it clear thatÃ¢â‚¬â€

MATTHEWS: But you said you have a two year plan.

SAUNDERS: He says he thinks we need to put together a two year plan.

WADHAMS: WhatÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs interesting is John Kerry was wrapping his arms around Jim Webb on Monday night and last night, and of course Kerry wants immediate withdrawal, so we donÃ¢â‚¬Ëœt know really where Webb is. If you look at all the public statements by Mr. Webb on the war now, we have no idea what his plan is or this is the first IÃ¢â‚¬Ëœve ever heard of a two-year plan.

MATTHEWS: Well, your candidate was for Allen a couple years ago.

SAUNDERS: Well, when you ask him a question, hindsight is 20/20 and Jim Webb has said when 9/11 came, Chris, the whole world changed, and you know, he just says it clearly. I made a mistake, heÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs disappointed, you know, heÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs ashamed, and to the point that he decided to run for the U.S. Senate and do something about it.

WADHAMS: But this is not the only time Jim Webb has switched the position, he was for George Allen six years ago and now heÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs against him. He was forÃ¢â‚¬â€he was against the Senate bill on immigration, and now heÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs for it. HeÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs got three or four positions on affirmative action. The trouble with Mr. Webb, we really donÃ¢â‚¬Ëœt know who he is or what he stands for in this race.

MATTHEWS: YouÃ¢â‚¬Ëœre saying at first you thought the president was right back in 2003 when we went to war and after watching this for three years has decided it was a mistake, is it worthy of our attention, because that represents the swing voter in this country IÃ¢â‚¬Ëœve just described. Because the swing voter was with theÃ¢â‚¬â€as you say, they backed the president, they didnÃ¢â‚¬Ëœt agree with him, they backed him. ThatÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs what you say Allen did. NotÃ¢â‚¬â€you say Allen didnÃ¢â‚¬Ëœt agree with him. You didnÃ¢â‚¬Ëœt say Allen agreed with the president. You said he backed him. YouÃ¢â‚¬Ëœve said it three different ways, you went along with him, back him and now you agree with him.

WADHAMS: No, thatÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs not what I said. WhatÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs important hereÃ¢â‚¬â€whatÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs important, Chris, is that we need to go forward from here and we still donÃ¢â‚¬Ëœt know exact my where Mr. Webb stands.

MATTHEWS: He said two years to get out.

SAUNDERS: The first thing weÃ¢â‚¬Ëœve got to do is say weÃ¢â‚¬Ëœre getting out.

Nobody has said that yet.

WADHAMS: Does your guy say weÃ¢â‚¬Ëœre going to get out eventually?

SAUNDERS: I think the president and Senator Allen have said that we need to get out, when the Iraqis can stand up, we stand down.

MATTHEWS: How many years are we willing to stay there?

WADHAMS: As long as it takes to do the job.

MATTHEWS: Really? Even if it takes 10 or 20 years.

WADHAMS: I donÃ¢â‚¬Ëœt knowÃ¢â‚¬â€I donÃ¢â‚¬Ëœt know what the outcome is.

MATTHEWS: You said as long as it takes.

WADHAMS: Whatever it takes.

MATTHEWS: Without limit, thereÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs no limit on our commitment.

WADHAMS: I donÃ¢â‚¬Ëœt know what the limit is.

MATTHEWS: This is a tough one. Is this going to be an issue when you go out to your candidates and you brief them in the morning and say todayÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs message should be, what do you think? The challenge in your case with the senator, what does he talk about on the stump, Senator Allen?

WADHAMS: We need to, number one, secure our freedom. We need to continue to make this the land of opportunity. We need to secure our foundational values, the last one being federal judgeships essentially, because federal judges have overturned the will of the people in state after state.

MATTHEWS: Your guy wants to build a really high fence, right, across the southern border, right?

WADHAMS: Secure the borders. ThatÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs right.

MATTHEWS: OK, whatÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs your guy want to do about illegal immigration?

SAUNDERS: Illegal immigration isÃ¢â‚¬â€cannot be solved by an omnibus bill.

MATTHEWS: What can solve it?

SAUNDERS: Well, first off, there are different problems. The first thing weÃ¢â‚¬Ëœve got to do is weÃ¢â‚¬Ëœve got to solve the border problem. ItÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs like, you know, weÃ¢â‚¬Ëœve got to do that.

MATTHEWS: I know. What do you do?

SAUNDERS: WeÃ¢â‚¬Ëœve got to stop the flow of illegal aliens into America.

MATTHEWS: With a fence, right?

SAUNDERS: Whatever it takes to stop them. It might be more than a fence.

MATTHEWS: So you both on top of border protection. How are you different?

WADHAMS: Yes, but there is a difference here, Chris, because once again, Mr. Webb has been very, very unclear where he is on immigration.

SAUNDERS: He has not been unclear.

MATTHEWS: OK, what does he do?

WADHAMS: He has been very unclear on the amnesty question. He basically came out later in the campaign saying he supported the Senate bill and that bill provides amnesty.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: ItÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs called legalization.

WADHAMS: Right, but itÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs amnesty.

SAUNDERS: TheyÃ¢â‚¬Ëœre different problems. See the Republicans, you know, theyÃ¢â‚¬Ëœre trying to take a whole bunch of different issues and dump them into one issue. The first thing weÃ¢â‚¬Ëœve got to do, itÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs like you said before, we to get the leaks, you know, stopped in the ship, and then we decide what to do.

MATTHEWS: OK, let me ask you both. This is the test question, this is Ã¢â‚¬Å“Double Jeopardy,Ã¢â‚¬Â OK? Does your guyÃ¢â‚¬â€let me go to your guy, because I had a hard time with him he was on last time, as I remember. Does your guy really believe that we should punish severely people that hire people illegally? Yes or no?

WADHAMS: There should be employer sanctions, yes.

MATTHEWS: Severe sanctions, real stuff?

WADHAMS: There should be employer sanctions withÃ¢â‚¬â€to get a handle on this, yes.

MATTHEWS: Does your guy believe that? Does Jim Webb believe that?

SAUNDERS: My guy is practical.

MATTHEWS: Severe sanctions on guys or businesspeople, these restaurants, whatever they are, they started hiring people, illegally, because theyÃ¢â‚¬Ëœre cheaper and they may be better, but should they be punished severely for doing that, because if they donÃ¢â‚¬Ëœt, then weÃ¢â‚¬Ëœre wasting a lot of time with border protection. If thereÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs a lot of jobs out there, theyÃ¢â‚¬Ëœre going to come and get them.

SAUNDERS: Jim Webb believes in a practical approach to it. First, you know, big corporations, big employers who do it knowingly, yes. I mean, you canÃ¢â‚¬Ëœt take a guy that is sitting down in the country somewhere, is too old to mow his grass and somebody comes up and mows his grass and throws him in jail over it. I mean, obviously, you canÃ¢â‚¬Ëœt do that.

WADHAMS: WeÃ¢â‚¬Ëœre not talking about that.

SAUNDERS: But, yes, absolutely, without question, that big corporations who hire illegal aliens.

MATTHEWS: Yes, it sounds like you guys agree on everything but Iraq. Anyway, thank you. IraqÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs a good fight. WeÃ¢â‚¬Ëœre going to be watching this race. Please come back and fill us in as we get closer to November. Mudcat SaundersÃ¢â‚¬â€what a name. I wish I could come up with a nickname.

Anyway, Dick Wadhams.

Up next, the White House communication director Nicolle Wallace is going to talk about the presidentÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs Iraq trip, Karl RoveÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs relief because heÃ¢â‚¬Ëœs not being indicted, and the White House outlook for the coming elections this November.

This is hardball only on MSNBC.

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