Russian Forces Close In On Georgia's Capital; Bush Looks Deep Into Putin's Eyes

By: Lowell
Published On: 8/10/2008 10:44:49 PM

The New York Times reports that the Russian invasion of Georgia has grown far more ominous:

Russia expanded its attacks on Georgia on Sunday, moving tanks and troops through the separatist enclave of South Ossetia and advancing toward the city of Gori in central Georgia, in its first direct assault on a Georgian city with ground forces after three days of heavy fighting, Georgian officials said.

The maneuver - along with aerial bombing of the Georgian capital, Tbilisi - suggested that Russia's aims in the conflict had gone beyond securing the pro-Russian enclaves of South Ossetia and Abkhazia to weakening the armed forces of Georgia, a former Soviet republic and an ally of the United States whose Western leanings have long irritated the Kremlin.

[...]

Two senior Western officials said that it was unclear whether Russia intended a full invasion of Georgia, but that its aims could go as far as destroying its armed forces or overthrowing Georgia's pro-Western president, Mikheil Saakashvili.

"They seem to have gone beyond the logical stopping point," one senior Western diplomat said, speaking anonymously under normal diplomatic protocol.

Apparently, President Stupid Bush still believes that international relations with a ruthless leader like Vladimir Putin come down to claptrap like this: "I looked the man in the eye. I was able to get a sense of his soul."  How and why did we ever elect this loser as president of our great nation?  And how could we even THINK about electing an older, crazier version of Bush to continue his disastrous policies another four years? Yes, that was a rhetorical question.

In all seriousness, though, the sad fact is that the United States of America - bogged down in the Iraqi "double strategic mousetrap" (as Jim Webb calls it)  - is completely powerless to stop Russia from invading an ally, overthrowing its government, occupying the country, taking control of its oil transit infrastructure, changing the balance of power in the region, etc., etc.  Heckuva job, Bush/Cheney et al!


Comments



Yeah, those Republicans are really great (Lowell - 8/10/2008 10:50:48 PM)
on foreign policy and national security, huh?  (snark)


So vote John McCain! (Lowell - 8/10/2008 10:51:13 PM)
An older, crazier version of Bush!  Ha. :)


Maybe I am misunderstanding (tx2vadem - 8/11/2008 10:15:57 AM)
So, if we were not involved in Iraq, you would support U.S. military action to support Georgia?


You're completely misunderstanding... (Lowell - 8/11/2008 11:04:13 AM)
...unless perhaps you're responding to another blogger or another blog or something.  What I'm saying is that Dumbya Bush has tied us down in what Webb calls a "double strategic mousetrap" in Iraq, which means we have very little leverage to respond - if we so choose - to crises in other parts of the world. In this case, I think Bush screwed up in a number of ways...excellent discussion this morning on Diane Rehm, by the way.  But no, I certainly wouldn't support "military action" against Russia, that's completely crazy.  At most, I'm talking about diplomatic moves, an overall shift in our foreign policy, and getting the hell off of oil (which is embolding Putin's Russia and leading in part to instability in the Caucusus region).


And here's our great leader (Lowell - 8/10/2008 11:10:54 PM)


We helped in Iraq - now help us, beg Georgians (vatechhokies50 - 8/11/2008 12:17:20 AM)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...

As a Russian jet bombed fields around his village, Djimali Avago, a Georgian farmer, asked me: "Why won't America and Nato help us? If they won't help us now, why did we help them in Iraq?"  



The NYT needs more current sources (Silence Dogood - 8/11/2008 12:37:36 AM)
The Russians are stating that Saakashvili's resignation is a precondition for the end of the conflict.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

In all fairness to, well, everyone west of Istanbul, I can't think of any past or present leader from any country who unilaterally wielded enough influence to end this particular conflict.  Regardless of where our troops happen to be situated, this is a nightmare scenario.  One party is a NATO aspirant, the other is in possession of a significant nuclear arsenal, and the conflict was started by a third party trying to secede from the first to join with the second, so both parties felt sufficiently antagonized and justified in mauling the other without restriction or restraint.  But the moment the US or Europe moves to intervene militarily, this stops looking like a territorial war and starts looking like direct conflict between NATO and Russia.  Whenever those two sides go to bat, the potential exists that the casualty county will climb right through the thousands on up to the millions in the space of about 24 hours.

In the short term, we should look for every opportunity to implore both sides to end the fighting, rather than rush at this as an opportunity to bring about the end of the world.  And in the long term, I think it's time we re-evaluated whether terrorism really is the worst potential threat facing the world today.



Well, one clarification (tx2vadem - 8/11/2008 9:29:46 AM)
The South Ossetians voted for independence nearly unananimously.  From what has been reported through interviews, they do not long to be part of the Russian Federation either.


I've heard both sides (Silence Dogood - 8/11/2008 10:43:39 AM)
And frankly don't trust either of them anymore.  I do know that the South Ossetians voted for independence from Georgia, and that there is (as one might imagine) a North Ossetia on the Russian side of the Caucas mountains with whom many ethnic Ossetians wish to be unified.  But events progressed so quickly that we didn't really get much of an opportunity to hear what the Ossetians were thinking on Thursday before unrestricted warfare broke out on Friday.  In any case, if they thought this was going to end with their independence of both Georgia AND Russia, they're extraordinarily delusional.


I don't think (tx2vadem - 8/11/2008 11:12:28 AM)
South Ossetians had time to think about this, Georgia acted without warning.  I also don't think South Ossetians are going into this blind either; I think they are well aware of what Russia's support means.  Afterall, Russia was handing out Russian passports to them.

And I just have to say this was so completely stupid of the Georgian President.  He thought Russia wouldn't react?  He thought the US would come rushing to his side?   Wow! if I were a Georgian citizen, I would be wanting a recall about now.  Though I'm also sure an external threat is a good way to rally your people around you.  



How much did the Bush administration (Lowell - 8/11/2008 11:14:02 AM)
lead the Georgians into this by implying that we would support them?  I really wonder about that.  Also, Putin probably thinks Bush is weak.


I don't know about Bush, but Cheney (tx2vadem - 8/11/2008 12:18:55 PM)
Cheney is threatening consequences for Russia if they don't control themselves.  Next stop on the Western Democracy train, Moscow!

Thinks Bush is weak? HA!  Putin knows Bush is weak.  What's the US going to do?  Act unilaterally again?  We're boxed in.  To the East is Iran, to the west is Syria, to the North is Russia in Georgia, and where we are is still marginally stable Iraq.  Not to forget Afghanistan, where the Taliban are staging their comeback.  High oil prices are a downer on our economy.  They have veto on the Security Council.  What leverage do we have?  Our moral outrage?  

Russia gets whatever it wants in this equation, Georgia handed them everything they wanted on a silver platter.  Abkhazia, South Ossetia, NATO membership, poof!  Gone!  I'd say it sucks to be Mikheil Saakashvili, but that's painfully obvious.  Let's hope he keeps his head.  



"If I were a Georgian citizen, I would be wanting a recall about now" (Silence Dogood - 8/11/2008 11:31:01 AM)
That's what the rest of the conflict is about now--obliterating Georgian political support for Saakashvili because he was stupid enough to gamble the lives of his people on S. Ossetia, and destroying their faith in the West in general.  A proportionate response would have driven the rest of Georgia further to the West and unified them behind their government, so Russia is going old-school.  They're going to keep this up until the Georgians' will is completely broken.


Putin doesn't do subtlety (Lowell - 8/11/2008 11:36:07 AM)
No wonder why he and Dubya get along so well.


I get it. You don't like Putin. (Silence Dogood - 8/11/2008 11:57:25 AM)
I don't either, but as an abstract strategic exercise divorced from the broader geopolitical picture and the civilian casualties, I have a lot of respect for this particular campaign.  No one has fought a war like this in close to sixty years.  The idea of a proportionate response, surgical warfare, and winning the hearts and minds has become so ingrained in Western military doctrine that we forgot what war looks like without smart bombs and cruise missiles.  I'm absolutely positive that Georgia had forgotten it because they clearly had not accounted for the consequences of unrestricted conventional warfare in their risk assessment before starting this fight.

This is what Shock and Awe really is.  We shouldn't snark about it.  We should learn from it.  Because Russia is going to win this round.



I doubt anyone likes Putin... (Lowell - 8/11/2008 12:09:09 PM)
...that almost goes without saying - the guy's an authoritarian thug (redundant, I know).  The question here for us, as Americans, is what about OUR president's screwups?  As Steve Clemons writes, "While the seeds of this conflict between Georgia and Russia had been planted long ago, the U.S. helped engineer events that are now undermining its own interests and the global perception of American power."


There are actually two questions here. (Silence Dogood - 8/11/2008 12:28:26 PM)
The other--and I'd argue the more important one--is "where do we go from here?"  I think that's the problem that lead tx2vadem to misread your original post as a call for military reprisals against Russia; all the specifics you mentioned were broadly pointing to the failures of "the Bush Doctrine" in the past, while t2v thought you were indicating why we didn't have available solutions for the present and future.

There are going to be at least two schools of thought over how we should approach this in the future--increased diplomacy with Russia or increased effort to isolate Russia--and lives will depend on which school wins out.



Well, if John McCain is the next president (tx2vadem - 8/11/2008 2:37:13 PM)
We can expect that same style of Wild West bravado.  He's definitely in favor of reviving the Cold War with Russia.  I don't see how that works this time sense Russia is an independent operator and not tied to some ideological argument.  Everywhere we piss someone off, Russia can step in to be their friend and whisper pejoratives about us in their ear.  They can make buddy, buddy with China, and China can shield them from our wrath.  Russia is a treasure trove of raw materials needed to satisfy China's ravenous appetite.  We would be in danger of isolating ourselves.  


I don't think we have seen the worst of it (tx2vadem - 8/11/2008 12:31:30 PM)
Ukraine is saying that it won't allow Russia's Black Sea Fleet to dock at Sevastopol if they use it against Georgia.  But Russia is already holding ships from getting to Georgian ports.  They say it's just tighter control, but looks like blockade to me.  I can't believe Ukraine wants to start a pissing contest when all of Eastern Ukraine is Russian and Crimea was just a gift of Khrushchev's.  These people have been drinking too heavy lately.  Only inebriation could explain this foolishness.  

And now (eye roll) Turkey is expressing its concern over the matter.  Of course, since Turkey is unwilling to recognize self-determination for ethnic minorities, it has a problem with other ethnic minorities asserting their Independence in other countries.  At least, they are consistent.  

What a mess!



Ukraine sounds like us trying to pull strings. (Silence Dogood - 8/11/2008 12:41:31 PM)
That's the sort of lame "soft power" prodding you might expect from the EU or the US in this situation.  It accomplishes nothing (Georgia's going to have to surrender within a week either way) and only antognizes the situation.

Turkey, well, Turkey.  What the hell are we going to do about you, Turkey?  This is why we can't have nice things, Turkey.



And shame on Bush and his unilateralism (tx2vadem - 8/11/2008 2:07:26 PM)
Bush and Cheney are also why we can't have nice things.  Their bull-in-a-china-shop approach to foreign policy has been a smashing success.  Whether it's North Korea, where we had to begrudgingly admit that the Six-Party Talks, Carrot & Stick approach works and the not talking to them didn't.  Or Iraq, where "old" Europe advised against, but we insisted that we would be viewed as the omnibenevolent individuals we are.  Oh and "religious conflict, what's that?  Sunni, Shia, It's all Islam to me."  And Iran, where we have systematically removed all of their enemies.  No Taliban, no Saddam, it's springtime in Tehran.  

We pushed this missile defense system in Poland and the Czech Republic.  We pushed the membership in NATO of all these former Soviet Republics, and we are the primary backers.  We are just pushing and pushing closer to Russia's borders.  All just us, because we can, and because we thought we could just steamroller over Russia without consequence.  Because if they don't agree with us on everything we want, then they aren't being our friends and this is our sandbox afterall.  Russia said they didn't want Kosovo to be independent, we flipped them the bird.  We were all over them about their war in Chechnya.  You can only push and push and push so much before you reach someone's breaking point.

And after all this talk about how Kosovo should be free and Chechnya should be free.  Suddenly, we support the territorial integrity of Georgia?  I know it makes a lot of sense, and I am just too dense to understand it.  I forget that we also support the territorial integrity of Turkey, Iraq, and China.

I can't believe though that our diplomatic overtures to Kiev and Tbilisi and maybe some military advisers gave rise to their leaders' bravado.  Maybe in the euphoria that comes with imagining finally being free of Moscow's shadow, they thought anything was possible.  And the U.S., their white knight, would come riding to the rescue should Moscow darken their doorstep.  That lead them to this let's-piss-off-Russia attitude.  It just seems a sensible person governing a small country would not seek to pick a fight with their very large neighbor to the North.  Even if you were best buds with the American President, I'd still think you might at least give our Secretary of State a call before you decided to flex your muscle.  Especially, if you thought you would be getting some backup.  Did he think that Putin would be too busy with the Olympics to worry about little, ole Georgia?  I just wonder what was running through his mind.  Or maybe that Putin was merciful and would not respond with ruthless force?  I mean because all of these scenarios sound dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.  



It's all perfectly clear (Lowell - 8/11/2008 2:26:00 PM)
in Bush/Cheney/McCain/Lieberman neocon la-la land, don't you see? :)


London Times: Russians inside Georgia itself. (Silence Dogood - 8/11/2008 2:51:42 PM)
They've taken Gori and admitted to siezing Senaki as well.  They'll be driving towards Tblisi soon.

Which of course has Kristol at the NY Times complaining about how we "owe" Georgia for those 2,000 troops they sent to Iraq, so we need to start trading missiles with Moscow now before it's too late.



Let's assume . . . (JPTERP - 8/11/2008 2:24:47 AM)
that after a long-and-protracted fight involving a guerrilla war the Russians reconquer Georgia and put one of their puppets in place to oversee the state.  

Does Russia have expansionist designs beyond the borders of the former Soviet Union?  My sense is probably not.  

We might see an attempt to re-ignite the Cold War through proxy battles.  However, even if Russia wanted to extend influence within the Western Hemisphere we have what appear to be more stable governments in place now in South and Central America than existed after the end of WWII.

Maybe Russia and China will engage in proxy battles in Africa?

The big take away from this is that the U.S. can't move fast enough in the direction of energy independence.  We absolutely need to diversify the energy sources that power the transportation economy.  Remove oil from the equation, and it's hard to envision the current Russia expansion post 2001.  It's even harder to see how they would hold together a reconstituted empire without high energy prices.

Obviously the Bush foreign policies in Iraq -- and its avoidance of the oil issue -- have helped to inadvertently facility yet another regional crisis.  However, the big question is: Even given the f-'d up state of affairs, what is the best U.S. response to this current challenge?



Broadly true. (Silence Dogood - 8/11/2008 10:13:15 AM)
There are a few things I'd pick apart (proxy battles in Africa are going to become a reality one way or the other, Venezuela's always looking for a partner in crime and a reason to antagonize a neighbor so they can unify discordant internal factions against an external threat) but the broader point is true: we need to get control over our private-sector and non-military public sector oil use, secure our own domestic sources and diversify our energy production so we don't find ourselves behind the eight ball down the rode.  Or the two ball.  Which ball's the red one?

By the way, some people need to read a little bit about the last 12 months of history regarding "democracy" in Georgia before we get into a pro-intervention fit of Cold War nostalgia.  There is, after all, a reason both the EU and NATO have been tepid on Georgia's bids for membership:

(From the Guardian, Nov. 2007) Four years after mass demonstrations brought down a post-Soviet regime in Georgia and installed a young American-trained lawyer as president, Mikhail Saakashvili is facing much the same display of popular discontent himself. His reaction was harsher than the treatment he received at the hands of Eduard Shevardnadze, the man he deposed. Riot police have tear-gassed demonstrators, beaten with them with truncheons, attacked them with rubber bullets and water cannons. Journalists have been beaten up, two television stations taken off the air and a state of emergency has been imposed.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comm...



Tough choices (tx2vadem - 8/11/2008 10:46:11 AM)
On this, the U.S. should tread lightly.  We should work through diplomatic channels to arrive at a solution that ends the conflict.  That may mean that Georgia loses both South Ossetia and its current president.  And it may even mean that Georgia also loses Abkhazia.

We should not let our desire for democratic governments around the world, cloud our judgement in international relations.  We must respect the fears/concerns of Russia because of who they are.  Just as people have to pay attention to us because of who we are.  We need to respect that they view Cold War institutions on their border as a threat.  Being invaded so many times throughout their history makes Russians focus on these things.  We need not antagonize them as neo-conservatives would have us do.

International relations are about these tough choices.  Should we make Turkey recognize that they committed genocide against Armenians?  In a perfect world, we would.  But given who Turkey is and what we need from them, we have to subordinate the grievances of Armenians.  It's truly sad, but that's the way it is.  

What is right and what is practical?  There's the tough choice.



"Being invaded so many times throught their history &c." (Silence Dogood - 8/11/2008 10:58:23 AM)
This is an excellent point, I think, because it's the reverse side of the coin that the US has experienced since the 1900s.  People keep trying to invade Russia (in the winter, the idiots) and they're quick to lash out across their borders.  Especially after Pearl Harbor and also 9/11, we're overwhelming concerned about the sudden unprovoked, unannounced and overwhelming attack, which is why we're especially concerned about the spread of WMDs in places like N. Korea, Iran and Iraq.

It's too bad shared paranoia doesn't make for a good foundation for mutual understanding, seeing as how paranoid people aren't especially trusting....



Old Europe smarter than New America (tx2vadem - 8/11/2008 9:55:14 AM)
First, I have to say that the BBC has an excellent article on lessons learned from this.

Turns out Germany (read old Europe) was right about denying Ukraine's and Georgia's request for admittance to NATO.  Turns out US boosterism for their admittance was wrong.  Germany, so well schooled in entangling alliances, is best equipped teach American ideologues realpolitik.  That's all we need is to encircle Russia.  And when a border incident erupts, it's World War III.  As we saw in Iraq, this turns out to not be the only case where old Europe has a better perspective on certain things than we do.

Russia's response is over the top, but Georgia should have never sent troops into the region in an attempt to take it back.  Georgia should have recognized the right of South Ossetians to self-determination and let them go.  This is the position, by the way, that the U.S. and Europe are taking on Kosovo.  

Let's take a trip back to 1999.  What happened when Serbia tried aggressively to maintain control of Kosovo?  Oh, that's right, we bombed Belgrade!  Now the Russians are doing the same in Georgia, and we have the nerve to respond with righteous indignation, really?  And basically, the scene is playing out the same.  Tbilisi wants to maintain absolute control over the boundaries of Georgia set by the Soviet Union and continued after its dissolution, much like Serbia wanted to maintain its boundaries set prior to even World War I.  Georgia invades South Ossetia, like Serbia invaded Kosovo.  Russia bombs sites in Tbilisi, NATO bombed sites in Belgrade.  I'm oversimplifying the history and actions of Serbia and Georgia, but you get the picture.



Excellent analysis by Steve Clemons (Lowell - 8/11/2008 12:06:51 PM)
over at the always excellent Washington Note:

...The fact is that a combination of American recklessness, serious miscalculation and over-reach by Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, as well as Russia's forceful reassertion of its regional national interests and status as an oil and gas rich, tough international player means America and Europe have yet again helped generate a crisis that tests US global credibility.

I think that Saakashvili who has been agitating for Georgia's membership in NATO just lost his chance with his own reckless behavior. Saakashvili's decision to send tanks into South Ossetia gave Russia the trigger that it may have wanted to send in more of its own troops and weapon systems. Russia was ready. Putin, now prime minister of Russia but still the center of power, was relaxing and chatting with George W. Bush in the bird's nest Olympic stadium in Beijing looking quite in control and confident.

It is possible that Condoleezza Rice's July 10th visit to Tbilisi and joint press conference with Saakashvili was interpreted by him that American power and resolve were firmly behind Georgia and its intention to reassert control over the autonomous provinces. The Georgian president miscalculated about American power in the world today and our resolve to take on Russia directly -- no matter how much the Washington Post's Fred Hiatt and Anne Applebaum would like to see the situation differently.

While the seeds of this conflict between Georgia and Russia had been planted long ago, the U.S. helped engineer events that are now undermining its own interests and the global perception of American power.

Again, a hearty "heckuva job" goes to George W. Bush and his "A Team" of foreign policy pros.  Do these tough-guy Republicans understand power politics or what?!?  (***extreme snark***)



Interesting item from Newsweek (Lowell - 8/11/2008 3:18:47 PM)
War in the Caucasus? The dispute between Georgia and Russia has all the makings of a tragic conflict.
By Anatol Lieven; Lieven is a senior fellow at the New America Foundation and author with John Hulsman of "Ethical Realism: A Vision for America's Role in the World."
1032 words
16 October 2006

[...]

The Bush administration has repeatedly assured the Kremlin that it is putting heavy pressure on Saakashvili's government not to attack the breakaway regions. Yet Moscow can't help but see a contradiction. Exhibit A is the fact that the United States continues to arm and train Georgian forces. Moreover, Russians see Georgian adventurism as encouraged by less restrained U.S. politicians, such as John McCain and other senators who visited Georgia in recent months and expressed strong support for Georgian aspirations. McCain's helicopter allegedly came under fire as it flew over South Ossetia.