is for this to be over.  The stupid pundits need something to gab about however, and they keep talking up Hillary even though she doesn't have a chance...

Take a shot and then wash it down with beer everytime Clinton does.

I think we are probably going to end up watching hockey tonight.  Probably Pittsburgh and Ottawa, or Devils/Rangers.

My fiancee is from the Philly area, and last night she was cheering for the Flyers while I was cheering for the Caps (not that there was much to cheer about).

Take a huge shot of Crown Royal every time Clinton says, "go to my website hillaryclinton.com."

Wash it down with beer every time the camera pans over to Chelsea and Wes Clark.

The obvious question I haven't seen asked yet of each candidate is: Will you support whoever the Democratic nominee is, and actively campaign for them?? I'd really like to see how HRC deals with that one after all the slime that's come out of her mouth!

The moderator tries to tie Obama to a former member of The Weather Underground. Then Obama  points out that Bill Clinton pardoned two members of the Weather Underground, and Hillary's smile turned plastic.

it began with gotcha aimed at Obama, and the tales that Stephanopoulos had apparently told some rightwingers he would go after Obama seem accurate -   not only "bittergate" from Charlie, but also Rev. Wright again, and Bill Ayers.   Only when Clinton jumped on the Ayers bit, Obama slammed back with the fact that Bill pardoned two members of the Weather Underground.

George the "setup" man questioning Obama about him knowing someone who was with the Weather Underground.  Clinton expresses 9/11 New York outrage and how the Republicans will hit Obama on it.  

Obama responds with the fact that William Jefferson Clinton extended pardons to two members of the Weather Underground.

Looks to me like he's getting better with his debate prep and will be more than ready to take on John McShame  

Okay Hillary, there goes the support of those groups who are aligned with Isreal. You said Hillary so now reap the ramifications of such a determinantion in April of 2008 for Jan 2009.

What the hell does what happens in Iraq have to do with 'those groups who are aligned with Israel.' If you are talking about far right Israeli and Jewish groups that advocate the neo-con pov of war uber alles, especially including an invasion of Iran ... well, those folks are almost certainly already voting for McCain.

Give Hillary credit for staking out an actual position of leadership -- she is absolutely right, it is the President that should be deciding overall strategy, and the only way this war will ever end is if we start leaving. I applaud her.  

I mean alot of people talk about how "we are less safe today" here in America b/c of Iraq and people by in to this portrayal and I can tell you if these people ever traveled to Isreal and actually witness what is is like to live in fear on a daily basis you very well may undertand exactly what safety is and isn't in real terms. I doubt any of fear going to Starbucks or Caribou Coffee in the morning and when is the last time children in America had to undergo emergency protocal drills other than a basic fire drill?
HRC got tremondous support from Jewish groups in her NY Senatorial campaign and her outright "read my lips--they will be out 1 to 2 brigades in sixty days" will alienate that interest from the Democrats as well as many of the Independents they both seem to think they will attract.

but, man, I think I disagree with everything you just said there.

To say that Israelis live in fear and cower from the terrorist threat is laughable -- on its face, a farce. Perhaps no society has ever better learned how to live in an uncertain situation and not come completely undone. Now, I happen to disagree with many of the decisions and tactics of the state of Israel in dealing with the terrorist threat, and I find many of the decisions they make self-defeating in the long run -- but the Israeli people exhibit a stiff spine as a society and an electorate. If ANY state ever had reason to act as you characterize it, it would indeed by a state surrounded on all sides by lethal groups that out-number them. But lucky for us and them, they have chosen not to become George Bush's and Dick Cheney's wet dream of a national surveillance state cowering in fear under the thumb of Big Brother, giving up their freedoms for ephemeral dreams of Total Security.

Your entire post is sputtering fear-mongering, completely senseless. If you think the only way to safety and security is to keep attacking and occupying the whole or most of the Islamic world, well -- we'd better just institute the draft and get it over with, or just nuke 'em all into parking lots.

Hillary's campaign has come undone, but it is good that she is talking the talk about ending this war. BTW, I doubt very many Democrats or Independents ascribe to the views you cobbled together, so I wouldn't worry too much if I were you.

Have you ever been there? The entire country , that is everyone, recently completed national emergency drills. Would we ever do that here even now when people claim we are "less safe" now in 2008 because of Iraq. The only ones less safe are those brave men and women serving in Iraq.
The people are a tuff and resilient people and have had to be. Thats the culture of the society because of the threat they perceive before them and around them. Again would we because of the security issue make every man at upon high graduation serve time in our military or would we simply stick with selective service registration. At a time when people complain about our overall force of readiness and security they tie it all to Iraq, but fact is if we had to face any conflict requiring greater than 150K troops have we not demonstrated that we would not be able to sustain our force for an extended period of time both militarily and domestically. I say this, because unlike Isreal, we like things to be over and done, like the Gulf War I served in. Extended conflicts are no longer going to sit well with us domestically regardless of the cause. Isreal has a culture of facing the threats and as a people are behind facing the challenge.
I do not agree with  ost of the policies either in Isreal, but before we beat the drum of real insecurity we should look elsewhere to analyze just how safe we really are relatiove to the rest of the world and set the politics aside when we do so.
I love how you see it as "fear-mongering" when I simply said that people who claim we are less safe have it wrong. How is what I said fear mongering? I do not contend we are going to sustain terror attacks in the future nor have I said anything to place fear in anyones heart, but rather have pointed out that the fears of being less safe today than before the Iraq war are not justified in my view based on our actions in our society compared to Isreal as a whole.

The first 45 minutes of this debate was deplorable.  Rev. Wright, the "bitter" comments, flag lapel pin taking precedent over the economy, healthcare and Iraq.  Come ON ABC!

Or is it sketch to have a moderator who once worked for one of the debater's husband?

I loved reading George's book but this is just awkward...and pretty much the worst moderated debate I've ever seen.

The moderators should be ashamed of the way they led this debate. They both sounded like they were working on John McCain's campaign.

you have to have a soul or a conscience. Two traits completely lacking in most of the clowns that run our discourse, unfortunately.

They are ABC, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republican party.

I mean really, they've been Republican from before Reagan....
So Fox stole their thunder on the neo-con agenda... but ABC has been GOP for far longer.

if certain people politically speaking would eat their young. George worked for Bill Clinton so what does it say now that because he actually acts like a moderator and asks tuff questions that he suddenly is pro-McCain. I guess after the defaction of Richardson, all Clinton supporters feel there is an exodus from those who once supported the Clintons. And if so, what does it say about HRC if people who once worked for Bill are now chosing to back other people if that were true? Interesting.

Howard Feinman calls it on Countdown this was 5 on 1, or even more.  Two moderators, Clinton, McCain and the whole Republican party was out there to get him.  Obama was on his heels all night, but he got back up every time they hit him.

You missed everything the news will be covering, they attacked Obama on every slip-up of the past 15 months. "They" is defined as the moderators and Clinton.

of the first 45 minutes.  Sounds like an utterly mind-numbing, wasted 3/4 of an hour.  Glad I missed it.

It was probably the least educational 45 minutes of TV ever recorded. It felt a little bit like middle-school gossip.

and Charlie Gibson millions of dollars a year to do?  Seriously, pick any blogger or citizen randomly from any state and they could do better than this crap.

I think this was one of the better ones Lowell. I liked the fact that Obama was able to take the heat and knock them down one by one given the fact he was facing the crads that will be dealt in the General.
My only regret was that since the Wright questioning went on at length, Obama should have turned to Clinton and said that if you are going to associate me with everything Wright has ever said or done then we all should associate her (Clinton) with everything Bill has ever said or done.

this from Daily Kos:

Given the historically poor quality of the questions tonight, I'm not going to put up the standard post-debate poll about who won. The answer is that democracy and the American people lost. I suppose if ABC sold some ads, they'll feel like they won.

Yes, this debate sucked.  Hopefully, it will be the last one for a long time.

They haven't; but they will try to take credit giving up two hours of commercials and so called entertainment for honoring the old obligation to air news as a public service...  in this case a public dis-service.  They should be charged for attempting to dumb the consumer down.

This is their last ditch effort to stop Obama so McCain can run against Hillary.

There was a negative reaction to Hillary after her "bitter" campaign against Obama. He rose in the polls after that. Yet she and these mutilators, I mean moderators, are still using the same tactics. The blogs are covered with outrage about this. Many people are saying they will not watch ABC again.

I invite you all to do what I have been doing so 8 yeara, -only watch TV once or twice a year, and NEVER buy any of the mind altering drugs they advertise on these shows!

It's guaranteed to lower your IQ at least a few points for every hour you watch.  Utter idiocy.

There should be a petty-meter that goes off in people's heads if you ask presidential candidates about a wearing a lapel pin, when there's a war going on, a weakening economy, and gas prices approaching $4, you are being flat out silly.  Since when does a pin equate to one's patriotism?  My brother is finishing up a year long deployment in the Army to Southwest Asia.  He doesn't wear a flag pin in his civilian job.  Therefore, he's not patriotic.  Give me a break.

should boycott ABC after this mess. Seriously -- tell them that he will not appear on any more shows or debates with Stephanopoulos or Gibson, and that his campaign will not be sending any more surrogates on there, either, unless/until those two hacks are canned. I am 100% not joking around.

The fact is, we are nearing a tipping point where the establishment press is about to be overturned. This type of mockery only hastens the arrival of that day. If I were him, I would completely blacklist both ABC and Fox, and put the rest of the national news media at NBC, CBS, and CNN on notice. If he needs to get his message out, he can go on oprah's show and local media outlets and public news and blogs, etc.

The people that poison our already gutteral discourse need to be taught a lesson.  

And while we're at it, NBC, Fox and CBS, plus the idiot cable networks, as well?  That would be a good start.

Except for sports, I don't watch network tv*, and I never watch CNN. I sometimes watch ko on msnbc, but that's about it.

*1 caveat. I am addicted to ABC's Lost. There's no way I'm giving it up, but I promise not to watch any other ABC shows.  

It's a damn shame when our most non-biased reporting comes from a comedy show.

makes the most sense at this stage.  I think something is in the works and will be happy to participate in one.  

By the sweet grace of the good Lord I was working late tonight, so I missed the disastrous 45 minute segment at the beginning -- still that bit about capital gains question posed by Charlie "the average income is $200,000 in the U.S." Gibson would be an interesting topic if he had framed the question honestly.

I guess this is why niether will debate on FoxNews either. I know most people tonight disagree but I thought this debate gave Obama the opportunity to address the woodshed that Clinton folks have been throwing at his campaign for weeks and he came across pretty good as far as I am concerned. So many of these debates have been set-ups and softballs, I am glad at least the base less campaign strategery got aired and addressed. I regret no real solutions could be addressed but lets face it these things have been all of the media for weeks in PA and needed to be faced.

The first she said something about how the Republicans should just apologize for the past 8 years and not run anyone...

And the other was a reference to Cheney being the 4th branch of Government.

The moderator questions were ridiculous. Why did George Step. ask Barack if Rev. Wright was a patriot ? Why doesn't Step ask Rev Wright the question. Barack's reply was brilliant. The MSM doing its best to fuel the continued decline of an un-informed electorate...  

has been interesting ... pretty good, I think. When Pat Buchanan plays fair umpire in his analysis of the ABC debacle (called a debate) ... you know something is up.

The Clinton campaign with Wolfson in the lead is now on the attack that Obama is "with" the weather underground. This guy Wolfson looks and sounds like a Dick Wadhams protege. Incredible. Somehow team Obama needs to nail these guys and Hillary should be put out to pasture.

Do you ever just think that there are so many massive problems we'll never be able to deal with them all?  And that there is no political will to do anything phenomenal?  That the big players will always trounce the average voter because they can bombard them with misinformation (like big Tobacco pioneered)?  

I watched Frontline last night (Sick Around the World) about healthcare systems in Asia and Europe.  And I was just amazed by the information.  I knew none of the detail about healthcare systems elsewhere.  But we spend something like 16% of GDP on healthcare.  The highest in the industrialized world and we don't even provide coverage to everyone.  And we aren't even talking about a system akin to Japan or Germany or Taiwan or even Switzerland.

This is only one of those massive issues.  We need to break free of the realm of the politically possible and move into the realm of what is best for Americans.  Hillary Clinton is still talking about the world as the way it is and operating in that environment.  And the pragmatist in me admires that.  But pragmatism is not what we need.  We need dynamism!  We need a leader who is willing to at least try to change the entire game not just take tactical steps under the existing "rules."  We need a leader who treats us like adults and levels with us.  And we are most certainly needed to change the game.  And we need a leader who can call us into action to do just that.  

I don't feel that person is not Hillary Clinton.  I know that person is not John McCain.  I don't know if that person is Barak Obama, but I want to believe.  I hope we can achieve something better.  And that's all I have.

the debate morderators steered clear of questions concerning the loosening of media ownership rules; global warming; and ABC/Disney's ties with China.

But Chuck Gibson sure was interested in what might happen to the rate on his (and his bosses) investment income.

Go figure.

We watched the debate only sporadically, as this race has now gone from interesting to funny to downright painful.  However, I was able to glean three things:

1.  Charlie Gibson has never heard of Aaron Burr.

2.  Too few people know their John Prine.  (In case you hadn't heard, your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore.)

3.  Somebody needs to do some serious research on Hillary Clinton's grampa's property records, and find out whether he really did build a cabin on Lake Whatever.  Betcha he didn't.

Okay, thanks, I'll go back to clinging to my religion now.  Guns, not so much.

-- GIBSON: "ABC News is pleased to sponsor the debate, along with the National Constitutional Center."

National Constitution Center Board of Trustees:

NATIONAL HONORARY COMMITTEE
Mrs. George H.W. Bush
President & Mrs. Jimmy Carter
President William J. Clinton &
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton
Mrs. Gerald R. Ford

CHAIRMAN
President George H.W. Bush

CHAIRMAN OF THE EXECUTIVE
COMMITTEE
Lawrence J. Kent

CHAIR EMERITI
John C. Bogle
A.E. Wolf

PRESIDENT & CEO
Joseph M. Torsella

BOARD OF TRUSTEES
Shahara Ahmad-Llewellyn*
Yale Asbell
Richard R. Beeman, Ph.D.
David Boies, Esq.
Madison E. Bond
Daniel R. Butler
Gilbert F. Casellas, Esq.
Richard M. DeVos, Sr.*
Richard Dreyfuss
W. Joseph Duckworth
Andre V. Duggin
Stuart F. Feldman
The Honorable Peter G. Fitzgerald
The Honorable Vincent J. Fumo
Steve M. Galbraith
Henry Louis Gates, Jr., Ph.D.
The Honorable Robert W. Godshall
The Honorable Slade Gorton
Amy Gutmann, Ph.D.
Stephen J. Harmelin, Esq.
Ben W. Heineman, Jr.
Paul C. Heintz, Esq.
Linda E. Johnson, Esq.
Sidney Kimmel
Chris Larson
Paul Levy
Alan Roberts McFarland
The Honorable Sandra Day O'Connor
Russell E. Palmer*
William G. Paul, Esq.
Vivian Weyerhaeuser Piasecki
Alan L. Reed, Esq.*
The Honorable Edward G. Rendell
Derrick A. Roman
Helen Ryu
William A. Slaughter, Esq.
Stephen D. Steinour
The Honorable Peter Terpeluk, Jr.
Stanley B. Tulin
Paul R. Verkuil, Esq.
Richard Worley

*VICE CHAIRMAN

Updated October 10, 2007

http://www.constitutioncenter....