Heck, independent voters aren't going to care about this at all.  That's why they are independents.

The party activists aren't going to give up on their nominee for the sake of this kind of thing either.  They know what's at stake.

Personally, at this point, I'm pulling for a December Iowa caucus.  I think it's going to take something that ridiculous to shock all the interested parties, particularly Congress, into action.

The parties want the states to volunteer, so they allow the states to determine on their own the methods for choosing its delegates. But the party could easily establish guidelines across the country that create a uniform system of rules.

You say a national party could easily set guidelines across the country.  And you recognize that states play a role in this process.  I would further add the many voices of state parties around the country.  So, with all of those ideas on how it should work, how would it be easy?  I would agree if there was some consensus on the way things ought to be, but there isn't as far as I can tell. 

The federal system does not care about parties. All a nomination does is guarantee that the name of the party appears on the ballot. The party has a vested interest in seeing that person win, so members of the party actively campaign and donate money towards that end.

This isn't about being petty.  This is about the sanctity of voting.  Howard Dean is acting like a fascist.

This is the type of BS the Republicans would do!!! 

If you want to call me petty because I value my right to vote, you can go find a deep lake and jump in it, for all I care. 

Do you understand ANYTHING about democracy???  This is the most undemocratic thing a person could do.  The DNC needs to think long and hard because they are about to make Florida a Republican stronghold for the next 100 years.

Does he understand a thing about state politics?  He was governor wasn't he?  What a bonehead.

Do not confuse your democratic right to vote with participation in a national organization.

There is no right to have your vote count towards the nomination of President.

I still think the courts will decide this.  Given how undemocratic a process (which you describe) is, and how integral it is to our election process, I believe this is unconstitutional. 

I would also point out that as I drove around the city today, I counted over 30 Ron Paul signs.  I can't recall an indpendent getting this much traction so early in an election.  This is probably good news for Democrats (since he will take more Republican votes) but I believe we may see a progressive independent/3rd party candidate.  If my vote doesn't count in the primary, I'll be looking for the 3rd party this time around.

People are sick and tired of partisan politics.  Disenfranchising Floridians my just be the straw that breaks the camel's back.  I swear on all that is holy that I will not vote for a Democrat in the general election if my vote in the primary is not counted.  You can't tell me that my vote doesn't count, and then ask me to vote Democratic in the general.  I've got to make a stand - and that stand is on my vote. 

I will put all of my energy into a 3rd party candidate if the DNC doesn't resolve this issue soon.  I have no qualms parting ways with the Democrats over something like this. 

Don't f#ck with a man's vote.  That's the bottom line.

No one is fucking with your vote, they're fucking with your ability to participate in an action of the Democratic Party, and the state party made their own bed when they went along with the plan. In fact, the state of Florida will probably still have a primary vote, so you'll be able to vote for whomever you like. Just your vote will not lead to any delegate going to Denver and choosing a nominee at convention.

And I question your dedication to the Democratic Party if you're seriously consider leaving it over this.

You never must question my loyalty to this country.  One of the things our country is founded on is democracy. 

By taking away votes from Floridians - and singling our state out - you are trampling on democracy.  This is will go down in history as a black mark for the Democratic party.

You can stand here and support the party if you want.  What you are doing is telling 4 million Floridians that we don't care what you think.

When they took my vote, you remained quiet.  You even supported the party in the move.  What will you say when they take your vote away?  You can talk all the mumbo jumbo about the right for the DNC to decide who can and cannot vote.  At the end of the day, my vote won't be counted.  Shame on you and anyone else who stands for that!

You need to put the shoe on the other foot before you start supporting such a fascist move.  We are talking about disenfranchising voters here.  Why doesn't anyone seem to get that?

It's time for Florida Democrats to sue.  This is complete BS.  Do you have any idea what this will do to the Democratic party?  I can tell you that you will not win 2008 without Florida.  And if the Democrats push this, Democrats will not win Florida. 

Do you want to lose the election in 2008?  That is the bottom line.  If you think you can win without Florida, go ahead.  Piss away our vote.  This state can go either way.  Tell us our vote doesn't matter, and it will certainly go to the Republicans.

This is MY VOTE you are talking about.  Stop disrespecting my vote!!!  If I come acrossed as pissy, it's because I am pissed!

It won't help to fuse/confuse this as "suppressing" or "disrespecting" your vote.  Primaries need not be state/government-sponsored elections, but they must be party-sponsored.  Otherwise the delegates don't count.  It's that simple.

Any such decision will never stick. Never.

Does anyone really think that Democrats will disenfranchise the delegates of a large swing state, whether it's Florida or Michigan?

The DNC is powerless. All it has is bluster. And as soon as we have a nominee, the first thing that person will do is rescind any such decision.

Other comments from that thread:

...this chaos was going to be endless if the DNC hadn't stopped it, with each state taking its turn at the "screw you, nobody matters but us" mentality; second of all, moving Iowa into December and negating South Carolina by putting Florida on the same day are both stacking the deck in the favor of the establishment candidate, and effectively achieving such a predetermined bias is not the job of the primary system.  It's the last thing I'd think would be applauded by Markos; I'm all for having states other than Iowa and NH out front for future elections, but the state-by-state chaos that was emerging wasn't going to get us anywhere.  I'm glad the DNC had the balls to stand up to Florida.

and

Florida singled themselves out. (12+ / 0-)

They bullied their way to the front and dared the DNC to stop them, and then on top of that they threatened a lawsuit...but they were not sure over what yet.

I know, I was on the phone a lot about it.  They threatened without a real basis.

By doing that they angered a lot of us here.

So who knows what will happen, but this process by which we Democrats pick our nominee is FUBAR, that's for sure.

At least we agree on something.

You need to understand this fact: the Democratic Party can choose its nominee in whatever manner it decides. It was generous enough to allow the states a large amount of freedom to determine for themselves the manner in which they delivered delegates to the convention. They set up rules to follow. Florida broke those rules. Because it is the national party's nomination, and because it is their right to determine how that nomination occurs, it is their right to not allow Florida to bring any delegates to the convention.

So if you're upset about losing your vote, then I suggest you talk to your state representatives and move the primary date back within the guidelines the DNC set up.

Democrats in the Florida Lege can make a fuss as much as they like, but they can't do anything.

That could change, however, if the RNC also comes down hard on the state. I don't know when that decision will be made, however, and I don't know how it will be affected with Sen. Mel Martinez (R-FL) as the RNC Chairman. He already has a shaky approval rating. Pissing off every single Floridian may have some consequences, I would think.

So you say: "So if you're upset about losing your vote, then I suggest you talk to your state representatives and move the primary date back within the guidelines the DNC set up."  Then you agree that Florida Lege has little incentive to do squat.  So, what was the purpose of writing your rep?  They'll send you a nice letter expressing their sympathy with your concern and then proceed to do nothing.  It's about party politics, and both parties are familiar with how the game is played.

Also, in your statement: "He already has a shaky approval rating. Pissing off every single Floridian may have some consequences, I would think."  Have you not contradicted yourself on how easy it is for the national parties to just set the rules?  And also on the power and role states and state parties have in the process?

As far as the RNC goes, I was commenting about Sen. Martinez's position as the junior Senator and being up for re-election in 2010. He has a pretty tepid approval rating, and if the RNC follows through on its threat as the DNC did with Martinez as its Chairman, then I don't know how he would be able to survive that in three years.

But does your statement on the RNC contradict your earlier assertion that national parties can just set rules with the stroke of a pen?

I don't get where you see a contradiction.

Both.  You are going to put a Republican in the Whitehouse next year if you support this.  Mark my words.  The Democratic candidate will lose Florida - and probably lose the election.

Also, I happen to believe voting is the most important thing we can do as citizens.  And any steps to strip a whole class of people of their vote is wrong.

"It was generous enough to allow the states a large amount of freedom to determine for themselves the manner in which they delivered delegates to the convention. "

Oh, so it's a party of the elite after all.  They are just being nice - allowing us little people to vote.  You are digging a hole for the Democratic party with those comments.

Republicans were praying for a miracle in 2008.  I think they just got it.  Looks like they get to screw our country up for another 4 years.  You people can't see the forest for the trees.  This is suicide for the Democratic party.

I believe voting is one of the most important things we can do as citizens as well, which is why we get the chance to vote every year, and more often than that depending on special elections and munincipal elections. Sadly, some people confuse the process of nominating a candidate with electing somebody to office.

The nomination process does one official thing and one official thing only. It makes one candidate the official representative of the party, and puts the party name on the ballot. That decision isn't up to democratic vote. There is no Bill of Rights of the Democratic Party. The party, as an organization, is free to choose the method by which it selects its nominee. After all, it is a free and autonomous organization, well within its 1st Amendment rights. If it wants to create rules for the process by which states select delegates to vote in the national convention, then they can do so, and they have the power to enforce those rules.

As for the "party of the elite", I never said that, and you misinterpreted my meaning. Its not a power of elite, its a power of people who make the rules for the organization. A few decades ago, the idea of a state primary was a rarity. Most were caucuses, or even worse, state conventions where the power elite would meet in a smoke-filled room and make all of the decisions for everybody. And guess what? All of those methods are perfectly valid for choosing delegates and selecting a nominee, because the Democratic Party isn't beholden to any imagined "right to vote".

Imagine that this were any other organization. The process by which they choose a leader--or in this case, a nominee in an election--is up to them. They can make it by majority rule if they choose. They can have Frank with the Lazy Eye make all the decisions if they so choose. In this case, the party chose, and it made its choice known. The state of Florida, with the consent of the Democratic Caucus in the State House, chose to broke the rules laid out, knowing fully well the consequences.

As for the political ramifications, I think your nightmare scenario is a little over-dramatic. I don't think that this will have a profound impact on the general election, and I don't Florida is the most important swing state either.

So my options right now are looking like this - vote in the "Florida Straw Poll" -- er primary that doesn't really count, or vote for a third party candidate that doesn't have chance in hell of winning.  This is total BS.

Florida Democrats said they blame the Republican-controlled state legislature for slipping the early primary into a new law that also creates a paper trail for electronic ballots.

"So they put it in there knowing full well that Democrats could not vote against a paper trail," Karen Thurman, the Florida Democratic Chair, said.

"Anything that diminishes and depresses Democratic energy only hurts Democrats," State Rep. Dan Gelber, the Democratic Minority Leader, said.

At the Volusia County 7th annual democratic gathering, there was the usual meet-and-greet the candidates, but there was also talk and anger concerning the DNC's decision.

"We harkening back to the days when the circular firing squad was our battle plan as Democrats," Gelber said. "We finally made some headway when we've actually been united and fighting for principles not against ourselves and here we go now doing the same thing that is going to disenfranchise voters and I think upset voters in a state where the one thing we need more than anything is energetic Democratic turnout."

Florida Democrats said they won't change the primary date regardless of what the DNC says. U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson and other congressional leaders said they'll sue the DNC if they have to, to keep the January primary at the current date.

But Florida's legislature and governor's office are all Republican controlled.  They are the ones who moved up the state primaries.  The primary is held the same day for both parties.

It would be incredibly expensive for the Florida Democratic Party to comply with the DNC suggested compromise of having a non-binding primary and then later having a binding caucus.  And the caucus system is actually less democratic and discourages participation.

Both sides - the DNC and the Florida Democratic Party - are in a bind here.  And inflaming the situation rather than looking for a workable solution won't help it.

Florida is too important to write off the Democratic voters.  And no, they won't go into the booth and vote for a Republican for spite.  At least the "condo commandos" of Broward and Palm Beach counties are some of the most loyal Democrats.  But the danger - and it's real - is that many voters will get discouraged, alienated and stay home that day.

Florida used to be a swing state.  In the 80s, when I lived there, it still leaned Democratic.  We are losing it needlessly now.

http://www.fladems.c...

"Florida Democratic Party Chair Karen Thurman and U.S. Senator Bill Nelson (D-Orlando) today announced that the Florida Democratic leadership voted unanimously to accept January 29 as the date for the binding 2008 Democratic Presidential Primary in Florida."

This is from the website of the Florida Democratic Party. Trying to pretend that they were forced to go along with the Republicans is quite a ruse.

The Florida Democratic Party reviewed many different options for conducting the state's presidential primary process in response to the Republican-held state government's decision to move the state-run 2008 Presidential Primary to January 29. This date did not comply with Democratic National Committee rules, which threaten serious penalties to our delegation for the National Convention.

OK DNC, you showed us Floridians - who dared decided to move our primary up.  See what it gets you.

At this point we should just caucus.  The DNC just nuked the grassroots here.  No matter what we do, this was a terrible slight against Floridians from the DNC.  I don't see how the party will recover in Florida.

If this system is not broken, it certainly is badly bent and distorted beyond usefulness as a way of creating orderly succession in a purportedly democratic system which is supposed to accommodate change, even revolutionary change, in a nonviolent manner. One is forced to doubt the ultimate legitimacy of any individual "elected" after such a travesty. Listen to the nose-out-of-joint whining from Floridians--- and other regionalists, listen to the endless begging by candidates for ever more money to answer the endless Swiftboating challenges from opponents, even from within their own party. Certainly, I do not blame the Democratic Party leadership for their present decision about primaries. Nevertheless...

I am not exactly sure how a participatory, representative governing system indirectly based on political parties can correct the obvious problems we have now, but what we have been doing is simply no longer good, even after one agrees that democracy is a messy business at best. How could we fix or change the way we go about selecting the next generation of leadership? Once before the system came unhinged, remember, as a prelude to the War for Southern Independence.